Transcript - ABC 7.30 with Sarah Ferguson

SARAH FERGUSON: I just want to change the tone very slightly here because we are used to politicians appearing to be thick-skinned. The execution of power demands it, and I should say this is not a reflection on Barnaby Joyce. I just wanted to change the tone. Because tonight we'll see a slightly different side of Education Minister Jason Clare, who today introduced the Government's childcare legislation and who is tasked with fixing the crisis in childcare that's left some of our youngest children vulnerable. He joined me earlier. 

Jason Clare, welcome.

JASON CLARE: Thank you.

FERGUSON: So, new legislation today, it gives you the power to cut off subsidies to childcare centres using the big stick. What is the threshold for taking that decision?

CLARE: Well, it depends on the seriousness of what's happening in a centre. If we're concerned that there's an imminent threat to the safety of children in a centre, that centre can be shut down today --

FERGUSON. So, that already exists?

CLARE: That already exists. And state regulators can and do, do that. But if we've got centres that are not meeting that standard, that quality and safety standard, there'll be the capacity, because of this legislation, for the Secretary of my department to issue a show cause notice to a centre to explain why they are not meeting that standard, otherwise the funding will be cut off within 28 days. But there's also the flexibility in the legislation to set conditions. So, the Secretary could also say, you must do a number of things in order to maintain your funding. That flexibility is important here to make sure that we target the right centres. And I've got to tell you, there's a bit of work going on right now before the legislation's passed between my department and state regulators to make sure that we've got a list of the centres that we can and will target with this legislation.

FERGUSON. So, that's the question. How do you know which of Australia's 15,000 centres to target? So tell me about that work?

CLARE: Well, they know. State regulators know this because they rate centres --

FERGUSON: Yes, but do they? Because the numbers on the frequency of testing, some of them haven't been. I think the average is every four years. Some centres haven't been tested for 10 years. So, what information are they relying on?

CLARE: Well, they know through the centres that they've rated that there's about 4 per cent of centres that aren't meeting that minimum safety standard and that can be everything from an exit sign through to lack of supervision. They also know the centres where they've set conditions for them themselves, and they've told them, you've got a couple of months to meet the grade, meet the standard and then they come back a couple of months later and they haven't. They're the sort of centres that the states are telling us they want to use this legislation to pull the funding from.

FERGUSON: I suppose the question is, is this plan built on shaky foundations? Given that the way the system works, the way the accreditation is done, the way the testing is done, there are such huge gaps in it. Yes, there may be centres that have been identified by the states and territories. What about all those centres, some of them, that haven't been visited for 10 years? What about those centres that have waivers? Where do they fit in?

CLARE: Well, this is where states need to step up. You know, the Commonwealth needs to step up. All centres need to step up here if we're going to make sure that this legislation does what we want it to do. But, you know, Sarah, I'm also not here to say that this is a silver bullet, that this is going to guarantee that every child's safe just because of this legislation. I spent a good part of the day dealing with some mothers of children who were sexually assaulted and abused in centres that were already at that standard. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be using the power that the Commonwealth has, with all the funding we provide to centres, to say to centres, if you're not at that standard, we're going to remove the funding. At its core, this is not about cutting off funding to centres and shutting centres down. If it works the way it should work, it'll send a message to the people who run these centres that you've got to get to that standard or the money's going to be turned off.

FERGUSON. So, what do you do? You say you want the states to do more, but what do you do about the fact that there clearly aren't enough regulators available in the states and territories to look at all of those 15,000 centres? There are too many with very long gaps, never, never tested, or the little gaps that I was talking about. So, you know, there aren't enough regulators in the states to visit those centres. So, what do you do about that?

CLARE: There's two things. The regulators already tell us they know where to target this legislation at the centres that they repeatedly go to, and they're not meeting standards. But there's also more work that the states need to do to build that workforce. And we've seen Queensland, South Australia and Victoria announce an extra investment in their regulators. That's a good thing. There's work that's got to be done right across the country. And it's not just this legislation; it's not just the work of regulators. It's the things we talked about a couple of weeks ago. It's about a register so that we know where workers are from centre to centre and from state to state. It's about CCTV and how that works. If we're going to roll that out, we've got to make sure we do it in the right way, so that the sort of predators we're all worried about in our centres can't use that sort of information for all the wrong reasons. And it's about the sort of training that we provide to the most important people who work in those centres. One of the things I'm very conscious of in this job is that with everything that's happened in the last couple of weeks, the people who work in our centres, the good, honest, hard-working people who love our kids, look after our kids, including mine in centres, feel tarnished, feel tarred by this. People have been spat on in the streets for wearing their uniform. They're the best asset we've got here to keep our kids safe, 99.9 per cent of them are those people.

FERGUSON: You're clearly worried about those people, aren't you?

CLARE: I am, I am. They do some of the most important work in the world. When my wife fell pregnant for the second time, we showed an ultrasound to my little boy, Jack, and told him he was going to be a big brother. And we thought, you know, he'd be really excited. First thing he said was, I can't wait to tell Kelly. Kelly is the woman that looked after him at childcare, and it told me that this is not an ordinary job. These are very special people, and they're as hurt and as angry as everybody else out there. And I've got to use this role and this responsibility and this opportunity to tell Australia how important they are as well. But we've got to equip them with the skills that they need and to identify a predator lying in clear sight who might be grooming a child or grooming them. And that's what mandatory child safety training is all about.

FERGUSON: Just come back to the way the system works, because you're bringing your personal experience to that. It's important. It's something that's clearly moved you because you've been very lucky to have excellent childcare staff. But do you think that they are also being let down by the standard system? It's been in place for a long time. Is it still adequate for what we need to address what is a crisis in the childcare system?

CLARE: No. No.

FERGUSON: So do you need to - Well, I'm asking about the system of standards itself. For example, as you know, the way things stand at the moment, a childcare centre cannot be failed for its performance. Do you need to have at least a standard of failure?

CLARE: Well, it sort of is, but there's euphemisms about how you describe it.

FERGUSON: Isn't it time we got rid of all of the euphemisms in this area?

CLARE: The point is, and it's- I think it's pretty bloody obvious that the system has failed parents here and that we've all got a responsibility to step up. That's the Commonwealth Government, that's State Governments, that's the people who run these centres as well. Part of this legislation is the power to cut off funding. Part of it is also the power to advise parents or to publish information to tell the mums and dads whose children are at these centres that unless the standards improve at that centre, we're going to cut off their funding. Not just them, but also to pass that same information on to the board members who run these companies and the stock exchange. You know, the big-

FERGUSON: Do you think those big companies, in particular the private equity involved in childcare and some of the big companies with multiple centres, do you think these people have been indifferent to the suffering of children in those centres?

CLARE: Money talks, and unfortunately, some organisations have put profit ahead of the safety of our children. Now I'm happy for -

FERGUSON: (Interjecting) Will any of those companies, those groups, still be operating in Australia?

CLARE: If they don't meet the standards that we set as a nation, that parents expect and that our kids deserve, no. If they meet those standards, then that's good. What this legislation's about is sending a very clear message. You know what the standards are. If you don't meet them, then there's no place for you in the childcare system in Australia --

FERGUSON: (Interjecting) I want to be very clear about the standards because I'm raising questions about the nature of the standards themselves. This whole system that you are creating depends on the standards themselves being strong and effective. Do those standards themselves, the way we rate childcare centres, do they need to be overhauled?

CLARE: I think the standards are sound. I think the rating system is sound. I think there's more work that needs to be done by the states to make sure that we're rating centres properly. Now that doesn’t mean -

FERGUSON: (Interjecting) Frequently enough? 

CLARE: -- And more frequently, and it happens differently in different states. So, there's- please don't interpret this as me blaming the states. We've all got a responsibility here, whether it's Labor Governments, Liberal Governments, State or Federal. Good work's been done. But not enough, not fast enough. There's more work that needs to be done if we're serious about making sure that we keep the kids that are walking through and sometimes being carried through the doors of our childcare centres safe.

FERGUSON: Jason Clare, thank you very much for answering the questions and also sharing that story about yourself. I appreciate it.

CLARE: Thank you.

FERGUSON: Thank you.