Interview - News24 - Politics Now

ANDREW CLENNELL: Jason Clare, thanks for your time.

JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: No worries, mate.

CLENNELL: Pauline Hanson said yesterday on Sunday Agenda the international student industry is a farce. She wants the intake severely reduced. It does make up about one-third of net migration, but I should point out it’s our fourth-biggest export at $55 billion a year, after minerals. But has she got a point? Have we got too many international students in this country?

CLARE: Well, the top priority for Australian universities has got to be training Australians. And the good news is that there are more Australians studying a uni degree today than ever before, and over the next few years it’s going to go up and up and up.

The other important point here is that the number of international students starting a degree this year is lower than it was before the pandemic, before Covid. It’s about 13 per cent lower. So it’s important –

CLENNELL: Can you give me the two figures?

CLARE: It’s important to get the facts right. You know, back then before Covid it was – the number of people starting a degree was above 300,000; now it’s below. And it’s important to also remember this: we tried to introduce legislation into this Parliament a couple of years ago to put a cap on the number of international students starting a degree, and you might remember that there were a few people in this building that were opposed to that.

CLENNELL: Yeah, yeah, I know. Sorry, you keep saying that, but –

CLARE: I only said it once; I just said it then.

CLENNELL: No, no, in interviews I’ve done with you in the past, though. But international student industry she says, is a farce. What do you say to that specifically?

CLARE: I’d make this point, that there are shonks and there are dodgy providers who try and make a quick buck out of international students. That’s why I introduced legislation into the parliament last year to tackle the integrity issues in this system, because I want to make sure that students get an education, that they don’t get rorted.

CLENNELL: So it is somewhat farcical in part, is that what you’re saying?

CLARE: Well, what I’m saying is that there are some people that want to try and make a quick buck out of international education that will undermine the reputation of this industry. That’s why I introduced legislation –

CLENNELL: But –

CLARE: Well, hang on a sec.

CLENNELL: She says it’s a farce. Is it a farce or not, the international student –

CLARE: It is not a farce. But it is important that we protect the integrity of the system. That’s why I introduced legislation into the Parliament last year to fix this. Things that, for example, ban commissions so somebody doesn’t get paid a fortune to move a student from one course to the other or enable a student to sign up for two courses, get here and then drop out of one and get into another. They’re the sorts of reforms that we’ve put in place. Pauline Hanson didn’t even speak in that debate last year.

CLENNELL: Why have we got a situation where more than 50 per cent of the students at Sydney University are international students?

CLARE: Well, they aren’t, and they shouldn’t be. And that’s why we’ve set numbers for Sydney University, to make sure that it’s less than that.

CLENNELL: Isn’t it about 51 per cent at the moment?

CLARE: Well, what we have made clear to Sydney University is that you don’t get any more international students under the system we’ve put in place until it goes under that. We’ve talked about this before, Andrew.

CLENNELL: What are they going to pull it down to, have they said?

CLARE: Well, they know that the system we’ve got in place – because the Liberal Party opposed the cap we put in place, an alternate system where we set a level and we allocate spots to different universities. And Sydney University doesn’t get any more places if they’re going to be above 50 per cent.

CLENNELL: Now, I’ve got to ask you: on all this, August 4, 2025, four months after the last election, just as the government for years really had been talking up getting a handle on net migration, your department announced in a departmental press release that the national planning level would be 295,000 for international students for 2026. That was 25,000 higher than the previous year. The release said no active provider will receive a 2026 allocation lower than their 2025 allocation. Publicly funded universities will be able to apply for additional growth places for 2026. So straight after the election, you give a green light to the universities to bring extra students in. Why?

CLARE: Net overseas migration numbers and these numbers measure two different things. So net overseas migration measures the total number of people who come into Australia and the total number of people who leave. These numbers for international students measure something quite different, including a lot of students who are actually here in Australia at the moment.

The point I need to make here is that the total number of students starting a degree now, starting a course now in Australia, international students, is lower, 13 per cent lower, than it was before Covid. So, you know, facts matter in this debate, and they are the facts.

CLENNELL: But the fact is that at the very time that you’ve been promising to reduce net migration, you give a signal post-election to the university sector saying you can bring more in, because you lift that national planning level. And you do it quietly on the departmental website.

CLARE: No, no, no. It was a press release by me, so it’s not just on the departmental website. But net overseas migration is coming down, Andrew. It’s dropped by almost 50 per cent. That is significant, but we’ve seen numbers –

CLENNELL: But why did you raise the planning level?

CLARE: Why did we –

CLENNELL: Why did you say to the universities you can bring more international students in in 2026 and you’re keeping the same level at 2027?

CLARE: And we’re keeping the same level because at those numbers we believe we can get that NOM – that Net Overseas Migration number – down to where we set it in the budget.

CLENNELL: You think by increasing the number of international students in your national planning level you can reduce net migration by 80,000 a year?

CLARE: As I said, Andrew, they’re measuring two different things. That number does not count the same thing. Many international students who enrol in a course are not coming from overseas; they’re already here.

CLENNELL: So this increase in the national planning level, as I understand it, has led the Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke to refuse more applications. So it feels like we have this push-pull between your department and the Home Affairs department in terms of your department is encouraging more international students in and he’s halting the applications. I mean, what do you make of that assessment?

CLARE: No, no, that’s not right. So, first of all, the numbers are set by the Department of Home Affairs working with my department. And we’re working together to make sure that the integrity reforms we’re putting in place are having the impact we need them to have. You know, if somebody doesn’t have the means to support themselves when they come here, then we’re not going to grant them a visa. That’s why I talk about when I say that we’re taking steps to improve the integrity of the system.

CLENNELL: I mean, you doubled the student visa charge and you’re still letting a tonne of them in. Is that revenue-raising?

CLARE: Well, we haven’t doubled it; we’ve tripled it, okay? It’s gone from about 700 bucks to about two and a half thousand dollars. Let me –

CLENNELL: Is it revenue-raising?

CLARE: Well, do you know what this pays for? This pays for more Aussie students to do a uni degree. There’s a myth out there that an international student takes a place off an Aussie student at university.

CLENNELL: So it’s hypothecated in a pure fashion, is it?

CLARE: The reforms I’m implementing at the moment, called the University Accord reforms, are to help more Australians get a crack at university. And I’ve got a bill in the Parliament at the moment that will inject an extra three and a half billion dollars over the next 10 years so more kids from poor families and from the regions can go to university. Increasing those visa fees is part of helping to fund those places at universities so more Aussie kids get a crack at university.

CLENNELL: Is it hypothecated or does it go into general revenue and then –

CLARE: It is part of – you know, I won’t go into the cabinet decisions or the ERC decisions, but have a think about how do you think I got the funding to be able to fund these reforms. And it’s not just a place at uni for an Aussie kid to become a teacher or a nurse; it’s also paid prac. Now, we just announced that we’re expanding that for 10 other frontline health services. That’s a bit of money for students while they’re doing their practical training to get through their university degree. And when you triple the fee for international students – guess what – it helps to fund those reforms.

CLENNELL: Isn’t it the case that you allow more international students to go to universities, you’re happy to lift the national planning level, because you don’t believe you can fund universities adequately without them?

CLARE: No, I fundamentally disagree with that. The number of international students, as I said, starting a degree this year is less than it was before the pandemic. Now, we introduced legislation to put a cap on international students. It was the Liberal Party that opposed that. But I will make this point: you know, international students do help to fund the reforms that we’re implementing so more Aussie kids get a crack at university. They also help to fund some of the research that universities do. There’ll be a lot of people watching this interview at the moment that will probably look at their phone and see the wi-fi symbol on their phone. You know, guess where that came from? Research that universities do. There might be a couple of people listening or watching at the moment that have got solar panels on their roof? Guess where that came from? Research from the University of NSW.

CLENNELL: One of the issues here is we let all these students in, and they all stay, and they bring their family members. So we have 240,000 temporary graduates in Australia. We’ve got 70,000 former students on bridging visas. Do you accept when it comes to migration, net migration, the political problems that the government has, this is a massive contributor? You can’t send people home after they study here.

CLARE: Most international students go home, full stop. That’s the first important point. If somebody comes here and studies to become a doctor or a nurse, then it makes sense for us to employ them in a hospital for a while so we get some value back out of the education that they’ve got. But that doesn’t mean that reform is over, Andrew, or that there isn’t more that needs to be done here. You know, the work of reform never ends.

CLENNELL: One of these things Tony Burke is looking at is that cutting off appeal avenues for people who studied here and then won’t go home and want to push an asylum claim or something else to stay.

CLARE: Yeah. Well, I’m not going to pre-empt the work that Tony is doing, but he’s doing serious work here. And we’ll have more to say about that shortly.

CLENNELL: Do you see your role as pretty integral in terms of the net migration reduction?

CLARE: This is part of it. You know, and I work hand in glove with Tony and all my cabinet members on this. I’ve said I think in interviews with you in the past – if not with you, with others – that migration has been too high and we’ve got to get it down. And we’ve got net overseas migration down now by almost 50 per cent.