Interview - ABC RN Breakfast with Patricia Karvelas

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The latest NAPLAN numbers are not good reading. One in three students are not meeting basic literacy and numeracy expectations and more than one in 10 are so far behind they need additional support. It leaves Australian students trailing behind comparable countries like England and Canada and shows divides between male and female students and Indigenous and non-Indigenous students. The Federal Education Minister is Jason Clare. He joins me in the Parliament House studio. Welcome, Minister.

JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Good morning, Patricia.

KARVELAS: These results paint a pretty bleak picture. When you were briefed on them, what was your thinking?

CLARE: They show why serious reforms is needed in our schools. We've got a good education system. I want to underline that point. But what they show is that it can be a lot better and it can be a lot fairer. Just to be clear here, what it shows is there's about one in 10 children who sit these tests that are below what we used to call, the minimum standard. But it's one in three kids from poor families. It's one in three kids from the bush. It's one in three Indigenous kids. In other words, your parents' pay packet, where you live, the colour of your skin affect your chances in life. And what it doesn't show, but what I'll tell you, is that it's only 20 per cent of those kids who fall behind when they're little, who catch up by the time they're in year 9 in high school. In other words, most kids aren't catching up. The result of that is we're now seeing over the last seven years, a decline in the number of kids finishing high school.

KARVELAS: So, 80 per cent are not catching up?

CLARE: That's right. And even higher amongst Indigenous kids. It's only one in 17 Indigenous kids who are behind when they're little, who've caught up by the time they're 15. Go back seven years and we had something like 85 per cent of students finishing high school. It's now down to 79 per cent. And in public schools that drops even bigger. It's dropped from about 83 per cent to 73 per cent. We've got to fix that; we've got to turn that around. That's what the funding I've put on the table to the states is all about. But it's not a blank cheque. It's got to be tied to reforms to tackle the issues we're talking about today.

KARVELAS: When you talk about the funding, the shadow Education Minister, who is Sarah Henderson, says the results are disastrous and has said that it's you and your government's failure to secure a funding deal. So, how much responsibility do you take for what she says is a failure to do that?

CLARE: The Liberal's view is that we shouldn't put any extra funding into our public schools. My view is very different. We've got to fix this funding gap and we've got to fix this education gap. That's why I've put $16 billion of extra funding for our public schools on the table. If implemented, that would be the biggest extra investment in public schools by a Commonwealth Government ever. Ever. But that money needs to be tied to the sort of things to identify kids early. I'm not talking third class where NAPLAN starts. I'm thinking about going back earlier to first class with things like phonics checks and numeracy checks, short 20 minutes checks to help identify kids who are falling behind and then intervene early with things like catch up tutoring. The evidence shows if it's done right, if you get a child out of a class of 30 kids, put them in a class with one teacher and three or four kids, they can learn as much in six months as you'd otherwise learn in a whole year.

KARVELAS: They can catch up.

CLARE: They can catch up and means that these kids can thrive. And so that's what I want to invest this money in.

KARVELAS: The deadline for the new public school funding agreement is fast approaching. So, far, only two jurisdictions have reached deals to sign onto that. What's the latest with the negotiations? What's the holdouts?

CLARE: WA has signed up. The Northern Territory has signed up. Whenever there's an arm wrestle between the Commonwealth and the States, it's usually got to do with money. I think there's general agreement amongst my colleagues about the reforms, the sort of things I've just spoken about. It's about who pays. And I've said, “let's go halves.” We'll chip in extra money, but we need the States to chip in extra money as well. And I said, “if the Northern Territory can do it, then so can the big States as well.” This isn't easy, Patricia. If it was easy, it'd be done by now. But it's worth doing. I want to make sure we get this done.

KARVELAS: You mentioned a really direct and targeted approach, things like phonics, explicit instruction. These things have been stuck in what I am going to loosely call ideological culture wars for a long time. I've never personally understood it. Please help me. As far as I can see, you do what works. There is some evidence that those things work. What is your thinking around that and talking to the states about being really direct about getting in there?

CLARE: The reading wars are over. We know what works and to be fair to the States, they're now implementing these reforms. Ben Carroll, the Education Minister in Victoria.

KARVELAS: But he's receiving some pushback?

CLARE: He is. But he's also receiving a heck of a lot of support from teachers too, who say, “go, Ben, keep going,” and I'm backing him in as well. He's rolling out those reforms. So, is Prue Car in NSW. So, is Jo Palmer in Tasmania. So, is Yvette Berry here in the ACT. So, that's important, making sure that we implement evidence-based teaching in our schools, but you've got to supplement it with extra wraparound support for the children who need it. That's why that catch up tutoring has got to be a key part of this, too.

KARVELAS: The States say the Federal share of public-school funding should be 25 per cent. Are you willing to go that high?

CLARE: What I want to do is finish the work that David Gonski started. Private schools at the moment are funded at that level. Some are above it. They're on track to go down to that level by 2029. Public schools aren't. There's a 5 per cent gap there. I want to close that gap. How to do that, that requires teamwork. The Commonwealth chipping in and the States chipping in as well, and making sure that we make that money work, make sure that that money is invested in the sort of things that are going to help the kids, that these results today show a falling behind and need extra support to catch up, and to keep up and to finish high school. 

Patricia, we live in a world now where it's almost essential to finish high school. I released the Universities Accord report a couple of months ago. It says 60 per cent of the workforce has a TAFE qualification or a uni degree today, but by the middle of the decade, it needs to be 80 per cent. So, that means we need more people to finish high school, not less. And that means intervening early. 

Reform doesn't start at the school gate. We've got to go back before that. It's the most disadvantaged kids in our community who are the most likely to benefit from early education and care and the least likely to be there. That's why the 15 per cent pay rise for our early educators is important to keep them there and get more people into that essential, important work. But also on my desk is the Productivity Commission's final report on how we build a universal early education system to provide better access and more affordable early education and care for the kids that really need it. So, we're not just talking here about kids who fall behind at school, but kids who are starting behind at school and how we make sure they get a better start before they even arrive at prep or kindy.

KARVELAS: If you look at the statistics, parents are voting with their feet and private school enrolments have gone up. And as a result, you know, there's less public funding because the funding follows the students. You must, as a public school educator and very proud of it, Education Minister, despair about that. Why is it happening?

CLARE: I do worry about that. I'm a public school kid and bloody proud of it.

KARVELAS: Same, same.

CLARE: I want public education to be parents’ first choice. I want more kids going to public education.

KARVELAS: But many parents don't feel like they can make that choice because the system has failed their children.

CLARE: And that's in part what these reforms are about. If we fund our schools fairly, if we make sure that we're funding public schools at that level, but also that we're using that money to get the extra support that our children need, then I think more parents are going to say, “you beaut, I'm going to go to the local public school.”

KARVELAS: And you think you can turn that around? Is that an objective of yours, to see those actual numbers and enrolments change?

CLARE: It's got to be part of it. But ultimately, what I want to do is see that percentage of kids finishing high school change. And in order to do that, I need to see the number of kids from poor families hitting those numbers early in those NAPLAN results change. It requires reform right across the education system. The fact is, Patricia, kids from poor backgrounds are less likely to go to uni, less likely to finish high school, more likely to fall behind at primary school, less likely to go to early education and care. I still believe that education is the greatest power of good in this country. We've got to make sure that we target the investments to help children who are born into poor families, live in the regions, Indigenous kids, to be able to use that power of education, get off to a great start in life.

KARVELAS: Now, just, just finally on that, before I ask you about another topic, if you don't mind, there's been threats to walk away from talks if a deal is not reached by the end of September. It's mid-August. We're nearing that time. Will there be a deal by the end of next month?

CLARE: I hope so. I don't know if it'll be a deal by the end of the month. What I've said to the States is “let's sign up to a deal where we both chip in half over the next five or 10 years.” If they're not in a position to sign up to the deal, we can roll that over for another year. Any suggestion that we're taking money off the table from the States is not true. What I want to do is provide additional money for the States, but as I said before, it's not easy.

KARVELAS: And if we talk about the results, do you have metrics in your mind about arresting the decline? Because it's human nature. You want to be going forward, we're going backwards.

CLARE: That's exactly right. The Better and Fairer Schools Agreement, the new national agreement with the States that's on the table now, that's been signed by the Northern Territory and by the Commonwealth, that'll be signed by WA soon, sets targets for arresting that decline in the number of kids finishing high school, getting fewer kids in that lowest category of needing additional support, more kids in that exceeding category. And also, fundamental metrics, targets to make sure that we're increasing the attendance rates at school. Attendance rates at school have been going down before the pandemic over the last 10 years.

KARVELAS: But they did accelerate after the pandemic and there's a lot of school refusing.

CLARE: But they're still not back to pre-pandemic levels.

KARVELAS: Just finally, on a totally different topic, but you have an electorate with many Muslim, Islamic, Arab voters, if I can call them that, they're actually just citizens, but they also vote in compulsory voting. Peter Dutton has called for an outright ban for arrivals from Gaza as the government is looking to establish a permanent visa scheme for Palestinian refugees. He says you can't be sure that it's safe, so there should be just a ban on those people coming in. What's your response to that?

CLARE: There's no one coming from Gaza at the moment. The Rafah gates closed. That's just a fact.

KARVELAS: But the Government does have a proposal for a scheme, right?

CLARE: That's work that's being done by the Minister, I presume at the moment. Anyone that comes from Gaza, like anyone who comes from anywhere around the world, goes through that security processing that our security agencies undertake. The same sort of system that existed when Peter Dutton was in power. And he knows that. He knows that. 
There are people from Gaza here now. They live in my electorate. I've met them, great people. And I'd invite Peter, to come to my electorate and meet them. These are people who've had their homes blown up, who've had their school blown up, who've had their hospital blown up, who've had their kids blown up. Come and talk to them, see them. And I think he'd get a better appreciation for the human catastrophe that is happening in Gaza now. These are people who, in some cases, are halfway through a medical degree or a dentistry degree or a pharmacy degree, people who want to rebuild their lives here in Australia.

KARVELAS: So, you mentioned that the gate is closed, so to speak like the crossing is closed. Would you like to see more people being able to come from Gaza?

CLARE: I'd like to see the war end. I'd like to see the killing end. I'd like to see the suffering end. I'd like to see the starvation end. I'd like to see Israel open the gate. There's plenty of food and medicine in Israel and plenty of trucks. Put the food and the medicine in the trucks and stop kids from starving to death. And I'd like to see the occupation end. I'd like to see a two-state solution where two people can live side-by-side in peace and security rather than what's happening at the moment.

KARVELAS: Thanks for joining us.

CLARE: Thanks, Patricia.

KARVELAS: That's the Education Minister, Jason Clare.