Interview - ABC 702

CRAIG REUCASSEL: Well, after years of negotiating, the New South Wales State and Federal governments have finally struck a funding deal for public schools. New South Wales Schools will get $4.8 billion in extra funding over the next decade. Jason Clare is the Federal Education Minister and joins me now. He's also the Labor Member for the Western Sydney seat of Blaxland. Morning, Minister.

JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: G'day, Craig. How are you?

REUCASSEL: Very good. Why has it taken so long to get this deal? I mean, it's been long going.

CLARE: Yeah, it's been a tough negotiation, no doubt about that. And it's not just about the $4.8 billion. This is not a blank cheque. This is tied to reform, real reform, to lift standards and lift the number of young people finishing high school, particularly in public schools. That reform's hard. It takes time before you see the real impact of it, but it's worth it. You know, when you and I were kids at school in the 80s and the 90s, under Bob Hawke and Paul Keating, we saw the number of kids finish high school jump from about 40 per cent to almost 80 per cent. That changed us as a country. In the last 10 years, really, ever since the Liberals under Tony Abbott ripped money out of public education, we've seen the number of kids finishing high school drop from about 83 per cent down to 73 per cent. We need to turn that around. It's more important to finish school today than ever before. And a big part of this is making sure that the funding is invested and injected into the sorts of things that are going to make that a reality.

REUCASSEL: We see constant calls as well by the Government for more people to go to TAFE, for more people to, you know, go into trades and that. I mean, do we need everyone to finish their school at the moment?

CLARE: It's a big part of it. If you finish school, you're more likely to be able to go on to TAFE or go on to university. We think that by the middle of this century, around about four in five jobs will require some sort of tertiary qualification, either a certificate or a diploma or a degree. It's about three in five jobs today. So, that's a big jump. And if we're going to get there, we've got to make sure that more people finish high school. And what I worry about, you know, I'm a kid from Cabramatta who went to a public school. My, you know, my oldest is in public education. My little one will be in public schools not too far away. The drop in the number of young people finishing high school is most acute. It's happening in public schools. I want mums and dads to feel like they've got a real choice, that they can choose the local public school. And that means making sure we get the investment right, that we finish the work that David Gonski started and that we invested in the sort of things that are going to make sure that if their children fall behind when they're little, that they catch up and they keep up and they're more likely to go on and finish school.

REUCASSEL: You say that these national targets for improving NAPLAN results, increasing student attendance and growing the proportion of people with a year 12 certificate. Does that mean if New South Wales does not hit the national targets, they will not get the $4.8 billion?

CLARE: No, it does not. The funding is tied to reforms.

REUCASSEL: How are they targets, then? They're just like they’re dream targets.

CLARE: The funding is tied to implementing the reforms, the funding's not tied to outcomes. Again, you know, I went to Cabramatta Public School, Canley Vale High School out in Western Sydney. The idea that you would rip money out of a disadvantaged school if they're not hitting certain targets is just wrong and counterproductive. What we're doing here is saying it's not just a blank cheque. We want you to invest in things like evidence-based teaching, phonics checks and numeracy checks in year one to identify kids who need more help and then things like individualised support through catch up tutoring for children who are behind when they're little to catch up. We know when you do that a child who's behind can learn as much in six months as you normally learn in a year. But we've also made the point that if the investments in these reforms aren't doing everything that we want them to, then after a couple of years we reassess and invest this money in other things. It's about making sure that we improve outcomes. But I'm not going to rip money out of disadvantaged schools. That would be absolutely counterproductive.

REUCASSEL: Now, in terms of this deal that's been made, we've been speaking to Prue Car about it for well over a year and they've been asking, New South Wales has been asking for 25 per cent, which is what they seem to have got here. I remember last year, both yourself and the Prime Minister saying, the money just wasn't there, what has changed? Is it the fact that you think you could lose this election or is this actually, is this an election pitch? Is this an election stunt. We're announcing it just before we think election might be called.

CLARE: I'll tell you, mate, this is a long time in the making. This is not about an election, this is about the future of this country. If you get these investments right, it sets children up to have the best start in life.

REUCASSEL: So, what changed? But that was the same last year. What changed from last year where you couldn't hit the 25 per cent.

CLARE: It involves listening to teachers, listening to parents and the state government saying to us, look, if you can invest more, then we will get rid of something called the 4 per cent rule. At the moment, when the states calculate how much money they put into schools, they can count things like capital depreciation on the buildings they build in schools. So, we've said we'll double our investment if you get rid of that. And that means that more money flows into our schools. So, we're chipping in more. They will chip in more. But the fundamental point that we've kept to here is that the money is not a blank cheque. It's got to be tied to reforms and the states are signed up to that.

REUCASSEL: Ok. And whether or not the reforms have the proper outcome, though, is it? I mean, if the reforms aren't having the proper outcomes, will you change those reforms?

CLARE: Yeah and that's the point I made just a moment ago. You've got to be agile, you've got to be evidence-based. If one reform's not working, invest the money in something else.

REUCASSEL: Now, look, this will see an increase in funding in public schools in New South Wales but when it comes to the federal government, New South Wales Department of Education figures show that private schools last year received about $24.9 million per school. Public schools had about 6.5 million each from the federal government. Do you think the right balance is there?

CLARE: That's based on the formula that says that the Commonwealth fund 80 per cent of private schools, Gonski funding what's called the Schooling Resource Standard, and the states chip in 20 per cent. And historically it's been the reverse for public schools. The Commonwealth puts in 20 per cent of public-school funding and the states put in what is now 75. And we're filling that missing 5 per cent. The real fundamental point here, Craig, is that non-government schools at the moment are funded at the level that David Gonski said they should be all those years ago. And public schools aren't, except for in the ACT at the moment. They're not at that level that the Gonski report said they should be at. We're fixing this. This is not about breaking the Gonski model, this is about finishing it. It's getting this done and making sure that the funding is tied to the sort of reforms that are going to help our kids.

REUCASSEL: And this deal is done now, can it be, if we do see a change at the next election in government, can it be junked or will this deal remain?

CLARE: No, there's a risk that it could be. You know, people have got long memories, they'll remember what Tony Abbott said before the 2013 election. Remember, no cuts to education. Well, that was BS. They ripped $30 billion out of public schools after that. And everybody knows that Peter Dutton has got to spend $600 billion to build nuclear reactors. You can guess where he's going to come looking for the money.

REUCASSEL: A question on the text line. Could you please ask when this money will begin flowing to schools? Will the state government restore the money it cut from school? When will the school see this money.

CLARE: It starts to roll out from next year.

REUCASSEL: Next year. All right. Well, thank you for speaking to us, Minister. I appreciate it.

CLARE: Good on you. Thanks, mate.

REUCASSEL: Jason Clare there, Federal Education Minister, let us know, what are your thoughts about this.