Interview - Sky News Afternoon Agenda

SUBJECTS: Pay rise for early childhood education and care workers; sanctions on Israel; resettlement of Palestinian refugees in Australia.

TOM CONNELL, HOST: The government will fund a 15 per cent wage rise for child care workers. That's over the next two years. The plan’s set to cost $3.6 billion. It does run out, though, after two years. I spoke to Early Childhood Education Minister Anne Aly a short time ago about why the government has made this a priority.

MINISTER ANNE ALY: Everything we know, whether it's from the reviews that we've done or the evidence, every approach that's been made to us has told us that we cannot have a sustainable early childhood education and care sector if we don't fix the workforce. Okay. Now, since we've been in government, there are 30,000 more educators in the system than when we first started. We want to make sure that they stay. We've had, we've seen educators over the last few years leave the sector simply because they can't afford to put food on the table. This is an absolute priority -

CONNELL: Did they go to aged care as part of it? 

ALY: Look, some of them went to aged care.

CONNELL: Because they did get a pay bump?

ALY: But look, you could get more money in retail. That's what it's like, Tom. So, you know, this is about ensuring that we have that stable workforce that we want to be able to develop and progress and make those reforms necessary, because we want to see a universal system that is world-class, that is affordable, that is accessible, and that is inclusive. You cannot do that without this vital workforce, and they deserve to be fairly remunerated for the work they do.

CONNELL: So, a 10 per cent increase from December, another 5 per cent December 2025. How long does that last for? Is that permanent or is there an end date on that?

ALY: Right, so this is done – the mechanism that we're delivering this increase is through a grant. And that is because that gives us time through to implement what we've got with the ACCC review and with the Productivity Commission review, the kinds of reforms that we want to implement for that system – that is in our vision, that universal early learning system. So, it is a grant for the first two years.

CONNELL: After two years, it resets. At that point, you hope to have some sort of solution which would replace the 15 per cent. 

ALY: That’s right.

CONNELL: Is that fair to say?

ALY: That's right. That's fair to say. Yes, that's correct.

CONNELL: And at that point, presumably you don't want them to get a pay cut, so the system has to find somewhere that 15 per cent. What's going to happen there? Is that going to be a reality that parents in a couple of years will probably have to pay a lot more?

ALY: Well, we're also looking at, and you'll have noticed that the two things that we announced was that 15 per cent price increase, but also a cap on how much centres could increase their fees at 4.4 per cent over those two years if they want to get that 15 per cent.

CONNELL: But beyond that two years is what I mean.

ALY: Beyond that, so, what we're doing is we're looking at what is the figure that we can set a cap at. Following the advice of the ACCC review, following the advice of the reviews that we're looking into, and following that pathway that we want to universal early learning, what is the price that we can set and what is the kind of the pricing mechanism that we need to have in place to ensure that fees don't continue to rise, but also that ensures that we have that stable workforce.

CONNELL: That's always a difficult juggle, though, right? Because you're also saying to parents, hey, this is expensive. A lot of people have been getting five, six per cent increases over the past few months. So, at that two year point, you're still going to have the same problem. Have you figured out yet whether there's – is there going to be needing to be a permanent government subsidy of wages to keep the workforce and not have fees spike? Is that a possibility, a permanent subsidy?

ALY: Well, everything is on the table. We are looking right now at what are our options. What I do want to stress, though, is that having this historical increase in the wages of early childhood education and care workers is incredibly important. It's incredibly important for our economy and it's incredibly important for a sector that parents rely on for the care and the education of their children. This is about ensuring that we have a strong economy and a strong sector that can support that economy.

CONNELL: Yeah, well, I wouldn't be here right now without the workers. 

ALY: That’s right. You wouldn't. I know that.

CONNELL: I’m not going to – not going to say they don’t deserve more money. Just sometimes where we find it.

ALY: I know that about you, Tom.

CONNELL: Just another topic – Ed Husic on Monday said Australia should be considering sanctioning Israel and specifically the Prime Minister Netanyahu. Do you agree with that?

ALY: Look, I think that there is more that we can be doing around what we're, you know, how we're responding to the Israeli aggression in Gaza. I've always said that. I've always articulated that. I do want to get back to ceasefire, and I think the most pressing issue is ceasefire. I think if you go to the region, as I have, the number one priority is ceasefire, ceasefire, ceasefire.

CONNELL: What your colleague, Ed Husic, is saying is words from Australia aren't doing it. Sanctions by Australia and other countries could. Do you agree with that?

ALY: It depends on the sanctions. We already have Magnitsky-style sanctions that we've put in place. I do think that there are more sanctions that we could look at and there are more things that we could be doing. But I still think, and I still reiterate, the most urgent and pressing need is for a ceasefire. And Australia continues, along with the rest of the international community, continues to urge a ceasefire, an immediate ceasefire. And the countries that are bringing the negotiations to the table, Egypt, Qatar and the US, we continue to back them in to continue doing that.

CONNELL: There is a push by some to permanently resettle Palestinian refugees that are in Australia. You've spoken about a ceasefire and there's a hope that something will happen on that front soon. Should that be pushed back? Should we wait until the situation is maybe resolved soon before looking at permanent resettling?

ALY: Well, I think that if there are Palestinian refugees in Australia who are seeking asylum, they should be afforded the same opportunities that we give to anyone else who comes to this country seeking asylum and seeking permanent residence. Of course they should. 

CONNELL: So, resettlement –

ALY: Why should they be treated differently?

CONNELL: I get – well, generally speaking, if there's hope that a conflict ends soon, it would be temporary stay – temporarily staying here before they could go back to their homes.

ALY: What homes? There are no homes left.

CONNELL: So, you think given the destruction they should – 

ALY: There are no homes left. There's nothing left for them to go home to. But I know from speaking to people on the ground there that a lot of people in Gaza don't want to leave because they don't want a repeat of the Nakba, which happened in 1948 when they were forcibly displaced. They want a right of return, and I think we need to also guarantee a right of return.

CONNELL: So, a right of return, but also a right to be resettled is the path you’re taking?

ALY: Absolutely.

CONNELL: Okay. Anne Aly, appreciate your time. Thank you.

ALY: Thanks, Tom.