Interview - RN Breakfast with David Lipson
DAVID LIPSON, HOST: In an effort to solve the worker shortage in early childcare. The Federal Government yesterday announced a 15% pay raise for early childcare workers. Here's Anthony Albanese announcing that yesterday.
PRIME MINISTER ALBANESE: What this will do is give child care workers the wages that they deserve. And the Productivity Commission inquiry has shown that unless we do something about wages in this sector, we won't have a workforce.
DAVID LIPSON: Anthony Albanese there. Well, Dr Anne Aly is the Minister for Early Childhood Education and Professor Kim Beswick is the director of the Gonski Institute for Education. They both join me now. Welcome to RN breakfast.
DR ANNE ALY, MINISTER FOR EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION: Thank you, David.
DAVID LIPSON: Professor Beswick, perhaps first to you. The Gonski report highlighted significant funding inequities in Australian schools more than a decade ago. Why are they still persisting?
PROFESSOR KIM BESWICK, DIRECTOR OF THE GONSKI INSTITUTE FOR EDUCATION: The Gonski recommendations for school funding have never been completely or fully implemented. So, the inequities persist. Essentially. Government schools everywhere except the act are still underfunded. So, that is an ongoing problem.
DAVID LIPSON: Who takes responsibility for that? Obviously, schools are largely a state government funding matter, but the Federal Government does tip in money as well.
PROFESSOR KIM BESWICK: Yes, it's a complex arrangement, so it's a combination of governments and that's part of the issue. I think that there's a bit of, you know, blaming of each other. So, somehow that needs to be sorted out and schools need to be fully funded. That would be, you know, that's just a baseline from where we can talk about other things that need to happen.
DAVID LIPSON: Well, speaking of other things, we know that early childhood education is a crucial element of educating our children. And Minister Aly, we have just seen this Federal Government announcement, a 15% pay rise for early childcare workers. Is this measure designed to prevent workforce attrition or is it more to incentivise flow of workers into that sector?
MINISTER ANNE ALY: Well, a bit of both, David. You know, every report, every bit of research, everything that we've looked into this sector tells us the same thing. Sorry, there my be dogs in the background. Go on, out, out out. Tells us the same thing. And that is that we cannot have significant reform that we want to have in this sector moving towards a universal, world class early childhood education and care system in Australia without fixing the workforce. And a big part of that is fair and equitable pay for early childhood workers. Now, this is something that early childhood educators have been campaigning on for more than a decade. And yesterday was an historic day with a Labor government delivering for early childhood educators that fair pay that they so deserve.
DAVID LIPSON: It's great for the workers. Are you able to guarantee that this pay rise will, will measurably improve educational standards in the early years?
MINISTER ANNE ALY: We already have excellent educational standards in the early years, as a matter of fact, and that was the biggest piece of reform that the government did, the Labor government did when it was last in office, the Gillard government, introducing the national quality framework. And since that national quality framework was introduced, we've had 80% of early childhood education and care services meet quality standards. So, we have quality standards in early childhood education and care. We have safety standards in early childhood education and care. In fact, our early childhood educators are professionals. They are not just people who wipe bums and noses. They know about child development, they educate children, they get children ready for school and they care for children's wellbeing and safety. So, it is high time that they got this pay rise that they so deserve.
DAVID LIPSON: Professor Beswick, just briefly on the importance of early child care for education outcomes.
PROFESSOR KIM BESWICK: Yeah, obviously it's foundational. If children start school behind or disadvantaged, then that disadvantage can carry on right through their education. But we must pay attention to all levels of education all the way through. But I think what Anne mentioned there about the quality of the workforce we have in Australia in early childhood education and care, it applies to the schools. We have very good teachers out there and I think a lot of the rhetoric we hear about, you know, improving quality, which of course, we always want to make things better, but there's so much talk about improving standards and teacher quality and all of these things that and constant inquiries and reports and new hoops for people to jump through that it implies that something is wrong when actually our workforce is at a very high standard. And I think that's part of the issue with the status of teaching. Pay and conditions say a lot about status, but so does the political rhetoric. We have to acknowledge that we've got excellent teachers in Australia and let them exercise their professionalism and get on with their job.
DAVID LIPSON: Yeah, indeed we do. What about the curriculum then, Professor Beswick? Because we saw data from an extensive test of 13,000 Australian students late last year showing that maths and reading skills of 15 year olds has drastically declined in Australia in the past 20 years. What are we getting wrong there?
PROFESSOR KIM BESWICK: They've declined over the past 20 years, but they have stabilised of late. And obviously we want to do something about that. I think it's a complex problem. It's not a simple fix. Part of the issue is the teacher shortage in subjects like mathematics. That's been an issue for many years, like four decades. It's just becoming an absolute crisis at this point across all subjects. And again, that goes to the respect and status of the profession. People who can teach subjects like mathematics and science and English can do other things as well. So, if they are constantly feel that they're being denigrated in the media and by politicians, then, then why would they choose?
DAVID LIPSON: But at a curriculum level, I mean, should there just simply be more maths and English and literacy being taught?
PROFESSOR KIM BESWICK: I don't think we need more time. I think compared to other countries, we spend plenty of time on those subjects. It's the quality of the teaching which goes to the expertise and qualifications of the teacher. Not that our teachers are bad, but if you're teaching a subject that you haven't trained in, you know, those teachers who have to do that are doing their utmost in their very, very best, but obviously they're not going to do it as well as someone who's got the qualification. So, we have to address the teacher shortage which connects to the status of teaching as well.
DAVID LIPSON: Minister Aly, on this matter, do you think explicit teaching of literacy and numeracy should begin in the early years, preschool, or are there other things more important to focus on?
MINISTER ANNE ALY: Well, when we talk about education in those first five years of a child's life, where 90% of brain development is occurring, we're talking about learning through play. And when we talk about school readiness, I think there's a bit of a misconception that school readiness means a child is able to count to 100 or add five plus five or say the Alphabet. School readiness is actually about being ready to learn. And that means things like being able to self-regulate, their oral language, being able to understand instructions, all of those kinds of things. So, we're actually looking now through our preschool reform agreement with states. What is it that we can measure in those first five years before a child goes to- starts big school, so to speak, before a child starts big school, that's going to help with school readiness. And it's not necessarily numeracy and literacy in the traditional sense that people think, you know, I don't want people to start thinking that we're going to be sitting down two-year-olds and going through the times tables with them. That's not what this is about. It still is about learning through play. In those first five years where children should be encouraged to use their imagination and looking at what is it that we can do to ensure that they are ready to learn when they go to school.
DAVID LIPSON: You're listening to RN breakfast here on ABC, and we're discussing the state of education in Australia with the director of the Gonski Institute for Education, Professor Kim Beswick and doctor Ann Arlie, the Minister for Early Childhood Education. Minister Aly as the world of work changes, education needs to teach skills demanded by employers. One of the shifts we've seen in the education sector in recent years is a move away from teaching 21st century skills towards more traditional teaching methods. Do you think we're adequately prepping students for Australia's future workforce at this time?
MINISTER ANNE ALY: Well, I'll answer this with my Minister for Youth hat on, David, and because we've just conducted some consultations right across Australia with young people aged 13 to 25 right across Australia. And a lot of young people told me and told the Office for Youth, which we established when we took office as a government, that they don't feel that school equips them for life. You know, they're not learning things like how to do it, their tax, financial literacy, all of those kinds of things. And sometimes when you're young, I've got to say this, sometimes when you're young, it's difficult to see the application of what you're learning at school to your future life. I remember sitting there in physics class and going, when am I ever going to need to know the speed of an inclined, speed of a ball on an inclined plane? But, you know, and then. But there are times now where I go, jeez, I wish I'd listened more in year ten math. So, I think there is something to be said about, you know, how do we, how do we ensure that young people can apply and understand the application of skills, of the things that they're learning to their lives?
DAVID LIPSON: Well, I think I need some counting skills because we're out of time and I haven't had, had an opportunity to go back to Professor Beswick, but Anne Aly and Professor Kim Beswick, thank you so much for being with us and discussing such an important area.
MINISTER ANNE ALY: Much appreciated. Thank you.