Interview - Afternoon Briefing with Patricia Karvelas

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: To discuss this and more, let's bring in one of our regulars, Early Childhood Education Minister Anne Aly, who's also been promoted in the latest reshuffle. Welcome.

MINISTER ANNE ALY: Thank you so much, Patricia. Great to be with you.

KARVELAS: We're going to start there because that's the big talking point around the world. A bit of clarification from Marco Rubio. Does that sound like a better plan that the US would redevelop Gaza?

ALY: Well, look, I want to start by first of all, Patricia, if I may, acknowledging the significant pain and distress that this caused to Palestinians across the world, particularly as they're preparing to return to their homeland. You know, certainly I think there is, there needs to be a concerted effort across the world to rebuild Gaza. And in fact, when I was at the conference in Jordan last year, that was on the table already, the countries that were represented there were talking about psychosocial recovery and rebuilding Gaza - what happens in rebuilding Gaza. So, I think, you know, it will take significant effort from right around the world for rebuilding Gaza. But in terms of, you know, the position that this government has around a two-state solution, inherent in that two-state solution is a self-determination for Palestinian people and the right of return.

KARVELAS: So, that means that you would never accept Gazans being pushed off or Palestinians being pushed off that land in Gaza.

ALY: I think the response that we've had from across the world to President Trump's statement yesterday makes it very clear that it is widely accepted that Palestinians have a right of return to their homeland.

KARVELAS: But you mentioned, which I thought was really interesting. You often say interesting things, Minister --

ALY: I do, do I?

KARVELAS: You do, that you want to acknowledge the hurt and the concern because there was.

ALY: There was right, it was, yeah.

KARVELAS: Just talk to me about that concern.

ALY: So, I think, you know, like just even talking to Palestinians in the community and to the community more broadly here in Australia, there was a real sense of shock and a real sense of, yeah, real concern that, you know, this could mean that there would basically an eradication of a Palestinian state when we've long held the principle of a two-state solution with a right of return and self-determination for Palestinian people. And I think, you know, if I were a Palestinian person preparing to return to my homeland, one of the things that we want to make sure of in Australia and you know, this government has done that consistently in the votes that we've done in the UN and the actions that we've taken is to ensure that this current ceasefire is sustainable and long-lasting and that there is an enduring peace for both Palestinians and Israelis.

KARVELAS: So, given how strong your comments have been about the Palestinians right to return, there has been a criticism that the Prime Minister could have used stronger words. Other foreign leaders who are also allies of the United States have used stronger words. Do you understand that frustration?

ALY: Look, I listened to the Prime Minister yesterday and I think he was quite correct in reiterating that we have a long-standing position that we're not changing, which is a two-state solution. And I think, you know, anybody could listen to that and recognise what the Prime Minister is saying is that we believe in the right and we support the right of Palestine and Palestinians and Gazans to exist in their homeland.

KARVELAS: And now you're kind of, you know, being pretty empathetic about how people heard that and their ongoing concerns. Is it important that the government makes that clear? Because I saw all those concerns too.

ALY: Yeah. And I think, I think, you know, we have made it clear, I think --

KARVELAS: I feel like you're making it clearer.

ALY: Well, I think the actions that we've taken that the Foreign Minister, Penny Wong, has taken, the votes that we've had in the United Nations, have sent a very clear message that we stand for human rights and that we stand for justice and that we stand for a two-state solution and an everlasting peace.

KARVELAS: I just want to move to some other issues because there are lots of issues in our country.

ALY: So many.

KARVELAS: There are. The Australian Federal Police has just spoken in a committee hearing. They have not given any detail as to, basically there's no answers on when they briefed the Prime Minister on this caravan attack. Shouldn't the Prime Minister just say it, or the Opposition says, call an inquiry?

ALY: Well, I think what we need to do here is take the lead from the law enforcement agencies because in an investigation, it's the law enforcement agencies that take the lead. And we have to, we absolutely have to respect the integrity of the law enforcement agencies and support them to do their work. As you know, Patricia, I've got a husband in law enforcement. I know exactly what he can and can't tell me. Most of the time he can't tell me anything. Like we do not talk about the investigations that he is undertaking in any capacity. So, when the law enforcement agencies say that we did not want this information out there because it is an ongoing investigation and could compromise the investigation, we need to respect that.

KARVELAS: But telling the Prime Minister is a different thing.

ALY: Well, I think, you know, I don't think it's here nor there. I've not had a single person say to me, hey, I want to know when the Prime Minister found out. So, I think it's a little bit of a Canberra bubble --

KARVELAS: Oh, a Canberra story.

ALY: Yeah.

KARVELAS: Ok. I don't want to just labour on that because there are other things Labor did break with your policy, which is a national platform to oppose mandatory sentencing. Former Labor Senator Kim Carr has criticised the party and said, this is profoundly disappointing. What's your response to that?

ALY: Okay, so I've got a bit of a different response, Patricia, because I know the impact of hate crimes personally and as a member of a community that has been the target of hate crimes. That to me, hate crimes are some of the most heinous crimes. When you target an individual or a group because of who they are, because of their identity, whether it's religious, racial, gender, sexual, whatever, to me, that's one of the most heinous and cowardly crimes that you can commit. So, I want to see, I want to see us get tough on hate crimes. I support being tough on hate crimes and I think what we've seen recently, the escalation in the kinds of hate crimes that we've seen, warrants this kind of action by the Government.

KARVELAS: So, you want. Instead of - because I know some people in the party are concerned, you want the mandatory sentences.

ALY: I want to see us to be tough on hate crimes. And you know, I've been there. I know, I know the impact that it has. So, I want us to get tough on hate crimes and I know that right now Jewish Australians are the victims of a lot of hate crimes as well. And I want --

KARVELAS: The Law Council says it's bad policy.

ALY: Well, people will have their different opinions. I will also say, though, that, you know, we know laws don't change behaviour. The prevention of hate crimes and vilification in all its forms is a responsibility for every single person. It's about societal change as well.

KARVELAS: Okay, let's get to some of your issues before we say goodbye. Child care is obviously one of the areas that you focus on. The government has decided to put this bill, which would mean three days of care without activity testing, where you get the rebate, essentially, through the Parliament. Do you expect it to pass in the next fortnight?

ALY: I do. I hope it will pass [the House]. I know that there is widespread support for this from the sector. It is a recommendation of the PC Review. And you know what? It's just good policy. It's good policy that when you have people in a partnership, one works full time, one might work two days a week in casual, and they're not eligible for subsidised care. It has locked out children from early childhood education and care and locked out families from being able to access the childcare subsidy. It's good policy. It has good support, and I do, and I look forward to seeing it pass.

KARVELAS: But it doesn't have to pass. It doesn't even start till next year. So, is it a wedge to try and get the Coalition to actively vote against it?

ALY: Well, I don't know what the Coalition's position is --

KARVELAS: They think that you should have to be earning or, you know, working or studying to get the activity test.

ALY: Well, the thing is, you can be working or studying to get the activity test but still might not meet the activity test. And the other thing is the activity test, when it was introduced in 2018 by the Liberals, it was supposed to be to increase workforce participation. It did none of that. Instead, it locked out some of the most vulnerable children from early childhood education and care. We're fixing that. We're making sure that every child has access to opportunity because there should be no barriers to opportunity.

KARVELAS: Anne Aly, always a pleasure to speak to you. Thanks for joining us.

ALY: You too. Thanks so much, Patricia.