Press Conference - Sydney

SUBJECTS: Reforms to International Education; School funding 

JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Thanks very much for coming along today. International education is a national asset. It makes us money. And it makes us friends. When students come to Australia and study, they fall in love with Australia and when they go back home they take that love and affection back home with them. You cannot put a price tag on that. We need to protect international education from the crook who try to exploit it and we need to protect community support for it. International education was hit really hard by the pandemic. Basically, cut in half. Students were told to go home and they did. Students are back, but so are the shonks, people that are seeking to exploit this industry to make a quick buck. And we're implementing a number of reforms to tackle that, including most recently the shutting down of more than 150 dormant, or ghost colleges. Places that aren't really operating to provide an education for international students but are really a back door just for people to work here. Ministerial Direction 107 has also been put in place. It's important to point this out. It's not a free‑for‑all at the moment. It's having an impact. Ministerial Direction 107 is having an impact on the number of international students coming to Australia right now. In effect, it's acting as a de facto limit‑setter. But it's a pretty blunt instrument. It's meant that a few universities have got a lot more international students this year than they did last year. And a lot of universities have got a lot less. It's why a number of universities over the last few months have come to me and asked me to put in place a different system, a better system, a fairer system. And that's what the bill before the Parliament at the moment does. 

Today, I can announce that ‑ subject to the bill passing ‑ the overall number of international students starting a course next year will be set at 270,000. This includes higher education courses and vocational education and training courses. And what this means is, next year, that there will be about the same number of international students starting a course here as there were before the pandemic. There will be more in our universities and there will be fewer in our private vocational providers. 

The level that we're setting for universities is about 15 per cent higher than it was before the pandemic. And the level for private vocational providers will be about 20 per cent less. For universities all up, it means they'll be able to enrol about as many international students next year as they did last year, 2023. For some, it will be less, and for some it will be more. The big winners are regional universities. Almost every regional university will be able to enrol more international students next year than they did last year. 

As part of these reforms, Ministerial Direction 107 will go. My department has written to universities today, outlining their indicative levels, and they'll work with universities over the next week or two to finalise those levels for next year. 

Let me reiterate, international education is extremely important, and these reforms are designed to make it better and fairer and set it up on a more sustainable footing going forward.

Happy to take some questions. 

JOURNALIST: Minister, are these caps designed to curtail the number of international students at large universities, like Sydney Uni, for example, and those that are highly reliant on Chinese students? 

CLARE: It's designed to make sure that we set up this system in a better and a fairer way, and a more sustainable way. As I said, there's a de facto cap or a de facto limit happening at the moment through Ministerial Direction 107. What that has meant is that some universities have got a lot more students this year than last year, and a number of universities ‑ a lot of universities ‑ have got a lot less. And they're bearing the brunt of that at the moment. Those universities have asked me to act, to set up a system that's better and fairer than the current one, and that's what this legislation that's before the Parliament will do. And that's what these levels will do. 

JOURNALIST: Minister, is there any overall percentage, as a total of student numbers that you can give us, that's going to be applied across the sector? I think we've talked about a 35 per cent or a 40 per cent cap. Is there a number? 

CLARE: There was some suggestion that we would set in place a percentage limit for universities, what proportion of their students could be international students and what could not. We're not setting that level. I ruled that out a couple of weeks ago. What we're announcing today is that the total number of international students enrolling in courses (at universities), starting courses next year, will be roughly the same as the total number last year. But, of course, international education is not just students coming to study at university. That's about half of the total sector. It's also the vocational education sector as well. And so, all up, the total number of students that will enrol in courses next year will be roughly the same as it was before the pandemic. 

JOURNALIST: And, Minister, the university sector, business groups, tourism groups, have all said that the cap is a bad idea. You've said that this is the most important export that we don't dig out of the ground. Are you risking shrinking it? 

CLARE: Well, I wouldn't say all universities are saying that. Have a listen to what Wollongong University is saying or what Newcastle University is saying or what…

JOURNALIST: But you haven't told us what number each university is going down by, so to be fair to us, it is hard to have that when you haven't supplied it. 

CLARE: Sure, and we're writing to universities today, setting out their individual levels. All up, what I'm telling you is, for universities, their numbers next year will be roughly the same as what they were last year. For some universities, some big universities, it will be lower than it was last year. For some of the smaller universities, some of the universities that have been hit hard by Ministerial Direction 107, it will be higher next year than it is this year. 

So, it's designed to build a better and a fairer system. The fact is, the universities I mentioned, like Newcastle, like Wollongong, like Griffith, like Charles Darwin, like La Trobe, like the University of Tasmania, they're the sort of universities that have borne the brunt of Ministerial Direction 107. They're the sort of universities that will benefit from building a better and a fairer way of setting levels for universities on international students. 

JOURNALIST: How do you reconcile criticism from business groups? 

CLARE: I'll double back. We've got plenty of time. 

JOURNALIST: How do you reconcile the funding hit that some unis, like Sydney, are going to take because they won't have the same level of international students coming in? And that means job losses, perhaps, you know, expansion in other areas and research? 

CLARE: The response I give is similar to the answer to Conor, and that is that universities are feeling the impact of this right now. There's a de facto cap right now. It's just that some universities have benefited from Ministerial Direction 107 and others have been hit hard by it. They're the ones that are bearing the brunt of this. So, the caps that we're setting, it will mean that some universities will have more students next year than this year, others will have less. 

JOURNALIST: But it will put a hole in some of these unis' budgets, that they were expecting to have more money from international students in the year and it will be less than that. 

CLARE: They'll make their individual decisions about what it means for their budgets and who they employ, based on these levels, and the number of students that they have, how they set their budgets. The fact is, for some of our big universities, they have a lot more students in their universities this year than last year. And one of the reasons for that ‑ not exclusively ‑ but one of the reasons for that is the way Ministerial Direction 107 has operated. 

JOURNALIST: So, the University of Sydney currently has a 50 per cent cap on international students. Do you think that's too high? And will that proportion go down? 

CLARE: It's not a cap. And Mark, the Vice‑Chancellor, was asked this question yesterday at the Senate committee. He made the point that it's around 50 per cent. He made the point that, like a number of universities similar to Sydney University, it's around that level. I think he gave Oxford as an example. You know, I've made the point a couple of times, that what we're not doing here is setting an artificial or an arbitrary level for universities about the proportion of students that can, or should be, international students. We're not doing that. What we are doing is setting levels for each individual university. And overall, what it means for universities is that they will have roughly the same number of students starting next year as they did last year. For the entire sector, it means roughly the same number of international students starting next year as there were before the pandemic in 2019. 

JOURNALIST: What do you say to concerns that the caps will be subject to legal challenge? 

CLARE: I saw those comments by the Vice‑Chancellor of Western Sydney University. I think the point he was making was that, if one jurisdiction or one university was carved out or exempt from this system, that it would create a constitutional issue. I can assure you, assure him and assure the Australian people that no jurisdiction and no university, no institution that enrols international students will be exempt from this. 

JOURNALIST: So, why are you going ahead with these cuts now without having first asked Treasury to model the impact?

CLARE: Treasury have been part of this work. Treasury have been part of this work. They've provided input into the work that my department has done. 

JOURNALIST:  Universities have said they haven't really been consulted on this and that they're effectively going to get a letter from you today with the numbers, that that's not true consultation, and that if they had a chance to be involved more in the process, you could come up with a better scheme that would allay some of the concerns around job losses or a broader hit to the economy. What do you say to that? 

CLARE: Individual universities will make their own points, but I've had lots of meetings with university vice‑chancellors and university leaders about the design of this. And that includes, Conor, the work on the bill itself. And I pointed this out in the House of Representatives when the bill passed the House the other day, that I do think that there are ways that we can improve this bill, and suggestions have been put to me by universities about the way that we could improve this bill. And when the bill comes before the Senate, there will be an opportunity to do that, based on the feedback from universities. But not just universities. Again, you know, we do concentrate on unis, but they're only half the picture here. This is a big sector and we've been talking to leaders right across the sector on this bill. 

JOURNALIST: Just to clarify, each uni is getting an individual cap today? 

CLARE: Correct. 

JOURNALIST: And then how long is that cap? Is it just for next year? 

CLARE: Correct. 

JOURNALIST: So you're going to do this year by year? 

CLARE: Correct. That's right. 

JOURNALIST: Individual caps for specific unis? And can you give us the proportion, the numbers for Sydney Uni, for example? 

CLARE: I don't have the numbers for each individual university. I'm sure if you give Sydney Uni a call, they might tell you what their numbers are. But I think the professional and the appropriate thing to do is to contact each university themselves and give them their numbers before we do a press conference and tell the world. 

JOURNALIST: So, the Government is not making that information public now? 

CLARE: That information will become public in due course. 

JOURNALIST: Minister, just getting back to the point about business groups and the tourism sector have been pretty broadly critical, it's fair to say. What would you say in response to their predictions around a major economic hit? 

CLARE: This is setting numbers for universities back to the levels they were last year. And I don't think anybody last year was saying that this was having a massive negative effect on the economy or on universities. This is just about setting the system up in a better and a fairer way. So, it's not just a lucky few universities that benefit from international education but it's the whole sector. 

JOURNALIST: Just on that, in Canada, I think recently they capped student numbers and that resulted in about 200,000 fewer people than expected applying. Are you worried at all about larger‑than‑expected consequences...? 

CLARE: They did it in a different way. They set an overall cap rather than individual caps here. It's important to send a message to the world that we want students to come here to study. But we want a managed system, not a free‑for‑all system. And we want to make sure that all institutions can benefit. And just, I guess, to add to your question, if there's a situation where some universities don't fill their cap, there will be an opportunity for us to reallocate that to other universities where demand exceeds their level. 

JOURNALIST: But you've been warned that this will do reputational damage overseas, that it sends the message that it is hard to come to Australia to study because there are caps. So, how do you combat that by saying that it won't make a difference?  

CLARE: That's happening now. The point I want to make is that's happening now. Talk to some of the vice‑chancellors of regional universities now and they'll tell you that visa processing is taking too long, it's having a negative impact on the reputation of the sector and their university, and that we need to set the system up differently. Set a level for individual universities and speed up the visa processing up to that limit. 

Now, if we do that, it's a better way than the current system, it helps us to return migration to pre‑pandemic levels, and it makes sure that the universities that are currently copping it in the neck are benefitting from a better and a fairer system. 

JOURNALIST: Minister, do you think universities have damaged their social licence at all with the numbers of international students that are here, not just at universities but at vocational education facilities? 

CLARE: You’re never going to hear me bagging universities or the people who work in them. They do incredibly important work. The fact is, we've got a good education system in this country, we've got a good higher education system in this country, but it can be better and it can be fairer. This is part of that. 

JOURNALIST: On that, on the opposition from the higher education sector, what accommodations have you made to support the sector with these caps? 

CLARE: Do you want to, sort of, give me a little bit more detail there? 

JOURNALIST: So, opposition specifically from the higher education sector, I'm just wondering what kinds of supports or accommodations you're able to offer to the higher education sector to deal with these caps, yeah? 

CLARE: Individual universities will make their own decisions. Some universities will have lower numbers next year than last year. Many other universities will have higher levels next year than last year. It's in the vocational education sector, those private providers, where the reductions will be largest. But, I make no apology for making sure that we're returning migration levels to pre‑pandemic levels, and this is part of that. 

JOURNALIST: Is there going to be any link to housing? 

CLARE: There will be. As part of the numbers, or the levels, that we set in place next year, there will be incentives built into that for universities to build more housing. The fact is we need more housing. 

JOURNALIST: So, they can lift their, so, is there a negotiation overriding their cap? 

CLARE: Correct. All of those details will be provided to universities as part of the levels that we set for 2026. 

JOURNALIST: Just on Treasury again. You said they have been involved throughout the process. What has their involvement been, if not formal modelling? 

CLARE: I'm not going to go into all of the details there, other than, as you would expect, Government works as a team. So, Treasury, as well as DEWR, as well as my department have worked together in setting the levels that will help us to return migration to those pre‑pandemic levels, and looking at what all of the impacts of that would be. 

JOURNALIST: Minister, some universities have said that they'll have to cut jobs if there's been a cut to their international student intake. If that happens, you know, do you believe that the numbers justify that, or will you have to take responsibility for that? 

CLARE: That will be a decision for individual universities. Some may do that, others may employ more. As I said, we're setting levels for next year for universities that are the same as last year. And that will mean, for some universities, it will be lower than last year, but for many other universities it will be higher. 

JOURNALIST: But you can't deny that, for right or wrong, for decades now the funding, there's been so many universities relying on the money that comes from international students. And you're ripping that funding.

CLARE: No. I think the way you present that question suggests something that's not true. This is an important part of our economy, no doubt about it. That hasn't changed. But as students have come back, it's put pressure on the reputation of the sector, it's brought shonks into the system that we need to crack down on. What this is doing is setting the levels for next year at the levels that they were last year. So, to create the impression that this is somehow tearing down international education is absolutely and fundamentally wrong. It's about making sure that we set it up in a sustainable way for the future. We want students to come and study here. Again, talk to some of those universities at the moment who are haemorrhaging because of Ministerial Direction 107, who are asking me to put in place a better and a fairer system to set them up for success as well. That's what this is about. You see that in those numbers. Yes, there are some universities that will be required to enrol fewer students next year than last year. But for many, they'll enrol more. 

JOURNALIST: Is the Government overstepping its role in universities? 

CLARE: I think if you ask most Australians, they would say that there is a role for Government here in making sure that we manage international education properly. You know, we manage the numbers of domestic students. We don't currently manage the numbers of international students. This is a way to do that and I think it's in a better and a fairer way than the current system through Ministerial Direction 107. I'll take maybe two more questions. 

JOURNALIST: Are you concerned that these powers could be abused in future?

CLARE: I said in the Parliament the other day that when this was being debated in the House that I do think that this power resides in a body like the Australian Tertiary Education Commission. We are consulting with the sector on the design of that Commission. It’s one of the recommendations from the Universities Accord. It doesn’t exist at the moment. We are intending to establish that. A big part of the debate in the House was whether these powers should be vested in a Minister or a commission like that. I tend to think that it should reside in a commission and so I have made that clear in the debate in the House and we will make that clear in the Senate debate as well. You’ll see that as well when the Tertiary Education Commission bill is presented to the Parliament. 

JOURNALIST: Minister, have any state governments expressed concerns with you about this? 

CLARE: I have had discussions with a number of state government representatives. They understand how important international education is. It’s a key part of the economy of many states and territories. I think they will be reassured when they see that what we are doing today is setting numbers for universities where they were last year. 

JOURNALIST: Prue Car was asked about SRS funding this morning and she effectively said WA was stealing NSW GST revenue. Do you acknowledge that you are effectively short-changing NSW with the school funding deal that is on the table?

CLARE: No. What I want to do is make sure we fund our schools properly. We’ve reached an agreement with WA, and we’ve reached an agreement with the Northern Territory where the Commonwealth puts more money in and the State and Territory put more money in as well. That’s what I want to do with an agreement that we can strike with NSW as well. I have put $16 billion of additional Commonwealth money on the table to fix that funding gap. To fund our public schools properly. But that money is not a blank cheque. It’s got to be tied to reform that will help kids, particularly from poor families and from the regions and from the bush who fall behind to catch up, keep up and finish school. If jurisdictions like the Northern Territory can do that, then I think the big states can as well.