Interview - Sky News
KIERAN GILBERT: Let's turn now to the education reforms the Federal Government's announced today. They've released an agreement, the details of which they want the states to sign up to in return for additional funding. Joining me live from Darwin is the Education Minister, Jason Clare. You've got the Northern Territory Government on board; they're going to sign today ahead of going into caretaker tomorrow. WA's on board as well, they're going to sign the next week. It looks like the rest of the states, though, they're not buying this Jason Clare?
JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: We're still working with the other states on this, but what we're announcing today is a big deal. It's a billion-dollar agreement with the Northern Territory to fully and properly fund all the public schools here in the NT. We're talking about the most underfunded public schools in the country and this billion-dollar deal will make those schools the best funded public schools in the country. And it's part of a $16 billion deal that I've got on the table for all the states and territories.
We've got to fix the funding of our public schools, but we've also got to make sure that we make that money work, that we direct that money to the sort of things that are going to help kids who fall behind when they're little to catch up and make sure that more kids finish school. And that's what the agreement that I'm releasing today and that the Northern Territory is signing today is all about, making sure that we tie this funding to practical reforms, things like phonics checks for kids when they're in first class. Same thing with numeracy checks, to identify kids who are falling behind when they're little, when they're at the start of school, and intervene early with things like catch-up tutoring to provide them with specialised, intensive support backed up by evidence-based teaching.
GILBERT: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The phonics check in year one and numeracy check about the same time just to get - that's well ahead of NAPLAN. But the problem is, and I've been in touch with a couple of state government sources who've said to me, and I'll just tell you, it says "without extra funds, this is a bad deal, this would blow out our deficits". That's what one senior Labor Government source told me this morning. How do you respond to that?
CLARE: I think everyone agrees or I hope everyone agrees, this is not a cost, this is an investment. If we invest the money in the right way, targeted on the right things, then it's going to make a world of difference. Kids that pick up reading and maths when they're little are likely to achieve more in the longer term. At the moment, we've got a drop in the number of kids finishing high school. It's dropped from about 85 per cent seven years ago down to 79 per cent. We've got to turn that around. That's what these reforms are all about. We live in an age where more people have got to finish school and then go on to TAFE or uni because that's where all the jobs are that are being created right now. And if we're going to do this, if we're going to fix the funding, then it requires the Commonwealth Government to chip in, but it requires the states and the territories to chip in as well. If the Northern Territory can chip in, and they're throwing in $300 million as part of this billion-dollar deal, and I think other states and territories can as well. And so I've asked the states and territories to tell me by the end of September -
GILBERT: It isn't just about dollars though -
CLARE: No you're right though, it’s not about dollars, it’s about what you spend it on -
GILBERT: So, let me ask you then, why with all the extra dollars, the Gonski funding that we've seen in recent years, why haven't standards improved?
CLARE: We haven't finished the task that Gonski set us. That's the truth. There was about $30 billion ripped out of education when Tony Abbott became Prime Minister. We've got to fix that. We've got to make sure that we fully fund public schools across the country. That requires the Commonwealth to chip in and the states to chip in as well. Non-government schools are funded at that level now or they're on a trajectory to get there by the end of the decade. Public schools aren't.
The deal I'm signing with the Northern Territory fixes that here. The deal I'll do with WA will fix that in WA as well. But I want to work with states and territories to fully fund public schools across the country. But to make sure that we tie that funding to the things that are needed, to make sure that we help kids who need extra help and make sure more kids finish school. It's not a blank cheque. We've got to make sure that we make this money work for our kids.
GILBERT: That's fair enough. It's interesting, though, I'm seeing this, and obviously everyone agrees with you that you want to see better educational outcomes. But Prue Car, the Deputy Premier on your side of politics from your home state. She says the idea that the states are not chipping in, she told Clare Armstrong that that's preposterous.
CLARE: We're all chipping in at the moment. What I'm saying is, to fill that final gap, that final 5 per cent that exists at the moment, it's going to require the Commonwealth to chip in and the states to chip in as well. I've got a great working relationship with Prue, as well as all the Education Ministers across the country.
They understand the power of education. They know that it's education that transforms lives. It transformed mine. I'm a kid, who is the only person in my family to finish Year 10. It's education that got me to this point today. And the truth is, mate, at the moment, one in ten kids across the country are below the minimum standard that NAPLAN sets. And it's one in three kids from poor families. It's one in three kids from the bush or from regional Australia. It's one in three Indigenous kids who are below that minimum standard. Most never catch up. It explains why we're having fewer kids finishing high school today than seven years ago. And we've got to turn this around. The solution to that is funding our schools properly and using that funding in the right way -
GILBERT: You've got to turn around this deal with the states too.
CLARE: That's exactly right. That's why I have asked the states -
GILBERT: Prue Car, I know you said we're all chipping in, but her argument is that NSW has chipped in, increasing from 72 to 75 per cent in 2025, an additional $480 million. As I said, everything in this agreement makes a lot of sense. The phonics check in year one, numeracy checks, the greater transparency, the dashboard in terms of where dollars are being spent, it makes a lot of sense, but you've got to get them over the line. And these are your fellow Labor people.
CLARE: They understand how important this is because they know that this isn't just about money, it's about what we do with it. It's the difference it can make for kids’ lives.
And so at the moment, the State Government of NSW is chipping in 75 per cent, the Commonwealth Government is chipping in 20 per cent. There's a legislative cap that stops the Commonwealth Government providing more than that. I'll introduce legislation to remove that cap and create a floor of 22 ½ per cent. We need the state governments to put in money as well here so that we close that gap entirely.
If we're going to close the education gap that exists in this country, where poor kids are less likely to finish school, more likely to fall behind, less likely to go on to TAFE or uni than other kids. Then we've got to close that funding gap and we've got to make sure that we tie that funding to the sort of things that are going to really help them.
And that's why what we're announcing today is so important. It's the result of a lot of work with the states and territories, phonics checks and numeracy checks when kids are little, so that we can identify kids that need help early. And then intervention early, with things like catch-up tutoring, backed by evidence-based teaching. But not just that, mate. In the agreement we're releasing today, it's also about investing in more counsellors and mental health workers, because we know kids that have mental health problems are less likely to be at school and more likely to fall behind. And paying experienced teachers more to work in the schools that need them the most. Because it's those experienced teachers, with decades of experience, that we need working in the schools where kids are falling behind at greater rates.
GILBERT: Yes. Again, the agreement makes sense the getting them over the line on the dollars looks to me to be the big sticking point at the moment. You've said by the end of September, they've got to sign on. If they don't, the big states that are pushing back, do they lose the additional funds? What happens?
CLARE: They'll have an option. Money is always the sticking point. It's always the difficult challenge in state-federal relations. So, that's not new, mate. But there's general agreement across the board, I think, on these reforms. The real challenge is getting an agreement on funding. I've said to the states and territories, choose an option between now and the end of September. Either take the additional $16 billion and match it, and you can do that over the next ten years, or we'll roll over the current agreement and protect the existing funding that you've got for another year. So, I'll ask the states to pick one of those because we'll need to sign on the dotted line by the middle of November so that the money is in place for the start of next year.
GILBERT: Education Minister Jason Clare, thanks for joining us from Darwin. Appreciate it.
CLARE: No worries, mate. Cheers.