Interview - Radio National Breakfast

SALLY SARA: Returning to federal politics now, and state, territory and federal education Ministers have agreed to change the curriculum to strengthen the teaching of maths and also antisemitism in schools. The Ministers also agreed to set or consider limiting screen time and restrict the use of generative artificial intelligence in schools. Jason Clare is the Minister for Education and joins me now. Minister, welcome to the programme.

JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Good morning. Thanks very much.

SARA: Before we take a look at the curriculum, what's the federal government's view of the US midterm results?

CLARE: Well, obviously, the war had a big impact on the way Americans voted yesterday. And if this accelerates the end of the war, then that's a good thing. We didn't start the war, but we're copping it. You see that in the massive increases in petrol prices here in Australia as well as around the world. And I think I could speak for all Australians in saying the sooner the war ends and the Strait’s opened and things get back to normal, the better.

SARA: Let's move to schools. You've been advocating for what you've called a digital detox in Australian schools. State and territory ministers have agreed to consider it. What would it look like across the country?

CLARE: Well, three main things. First, we've agreed that the NAPLAN writing test for primary school kids should go back to pen and paper rather than typing it on a keyboard. Second, we've agreed to restrict, or to at least consider restricting screen time in our schools. And then thirdly, restricting the use of artificial intelligence, both at primary school but also in assessments at high school. I think most parents with, you know, either toddlers or, for that matter, teenagers, know the impact that screens are having on their kids at home, turning them into little zombies and, you know, frying attention spans. But most of us thought that school was a bit different and that if you didn't have a tablet or you didn't have your own laptop, then kids were missing out and would fall behind. And the mounting evidence is that that's not necessarily true, that young people who spend more time on screens can do worse than those who don't. And that's why in places like New York and LA and other countries or in countries around the world, they're limiting screen time. We heard the example at the meeting on Monday about teachers now teaching from the back of the class rather than the front of the class, just to make sure that what's on the screen of children is actually what's being taught rather than other things. Macquarie University just released a study that showed Year 11 and 12 students were spending up to an hour and a half a day on their screens, looking at things that weren't related to school. You know, googling things, gaming, watching TV or sport, or messaging friends. And so I think there is a very good argument that we need to restrict screen time at schools, you know, down to zero for really little kids, but limiting it right across the board. And looking at how we restrict the use of artificial intelligence as well, you know, we don't give children calculators in kindergarten and there's a reason for that. You've got to learn to count, learn your times tables before you get a tool to do it at speed. And I think the same thing is true for AI.

SARA: So, previously with schools, have we got it wrong bringing in screens? How much do you think this might attribute to Australia's poorer academic results compared to some other OECD countries?

CLARE: Oh, we're seeing it not just in Australia, but worldwide. And I'm not making the argument here to burn the iPads and throw them all in the bin, but I am saying that there's a pretty good argument here for more pen and paper and less tech. Just wind it back a bit. If you're going to use technology, use it for a purpose rather than as a default. And that's what all Ministers agreed to on Monday. We also agreed to set up a taskforce that's going to report to us through the course of next year on what are the next steps that we should take.

SARA: On antisemitism, curriculum changes to strengthen understanding of antisemitism and the Holocaust have been agreed to. Can you outline what those changes involve?

CLARE: Yeah, they involve better, more thorough teaching of the Holocaust, firstly, what happened, but also its causes and its consequences. But beyond that, a better understanding for students about Jewish history, as well as the contribution that Jewish Australians have made to Australia. I think most people would agree that hate is born of fear and fear is born of ignorance, and that our education system can play a positive role here in helping to address that. So, that's why these changes have been made, and they'll roll out from next year. But it's also why we've made the decision that we want to make the same sort of changes to the curriculum to tackle racism and hate in all its noxious forms. And as part of that, we've asked David Gonski to help lead that work over the course of the next couple of years.

SARA: Changes, are they in response to the deadly Bondi terror attack? Will more need to be done in the education space?

CLARE: Well, you're exactly right. In the wake of Bondi, we announced that we would do this curriculum review. Kids aren't born racist. They're not born with hate in their heart. It's something that's taught, it's something that's learnt, and it's something that the education system can help us to tackle. That's why we asked David to lead the Antisemitism Education Taskforce. That's done a lot of good work in terms of resources for teachers, but also these changes to the curriculum that were presented to Ministers on Monday and that we agreed to. But as I said, we think this is the start, not the end. There's more work that needs to be done around the curriculum to tackle racism in all its forms, including Islamophobia. But in addition to that, we made the decision on Monday that more needs to be done around the teaching of civics in our schools. It's a funny thing - the primary school kids seem to know more about democracy and the Parliament and how Australia works than kids in high school. The evidence we have in front of us now tells us that young people in high school know less about how Australia works than ever before. We've been tracking this now for just over 20 years, and the results are the lowest they've ever been. I kind of figure that the most basic part of living in a democracy is understanding how it works. And that's why we also made the decision on Monday to ask the curriculum body, ACARA, to do some work for us on making civics, the teaching of civics, mandatory for Year 9 and Year 10, so that young people leave school with a better understanding of the curriculum, the legal system, the way Parliament works, the way democracy works, the way Australia works.

SARA: Minister, thank you for joining me this morning.

CLARE: Thanks very much.