Interview - Daily Aus Podcast
BILLI FITZSIMONS: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Aus, it is Monday, 18 November. I'm Billi.
SAM KOWLOWSKI: I'm Sam.
FITZSIMONS: Education is one of the key portfolios in government that affects young Australians the most, from what we get taught in school to how we pay for university.
KOWLOWSKI: But decisions made by the Education Minister affects us all. They are the person who leads areas like funding to public schools, the arrival of foreign students in universities and the contents of the national curriculum.
FITZSIMONS: So today we interviewed the Federal Education Minister, Jason Clare. With the Federal Election set to be held some time by May next year, we're here to interview the Minister about what he has done in the past three years of government and what he plans to do if he's re elected.
Before we jump into it, I just want to say a big thank you to all of you who sent me questions over on our newsletter. It is always so helpful when we are able to hear directly from you what you want to get answers to, and it's always a great privilege to be able to actually put them to the Minister.
KOWLOWSKI: I really do feel like it's for TVA, Australian media acting as Australian media should, it's holding power to account via the voices of our audience. So here's that chat.
FITZSIMONS: Jason Clare, thank you so much for joining the Daily Aus.
JASON CLARE: Thanks for having me.
FITZSIMONS: You are the Education Minister. Can you just explain, what is it that you do?
CLARE: I feel so privileged, this is the best job in the world. I'm responsible for everything from our higher education system, to our school education system, right through to our early education system. So I really do believe that education is the most powerful cause for good.
We've got a good education system, but I think it can be a lot better, and I think it can be a lot fairer, and so that's what drives me in this job.
FITZSIMONS: So earlier this month you announced plans to take 20 per cent off all student debts if you're re elected next year. First, do you just want to explain what was the thinking behind that policy?
CLARE: It's more expensive to go to university than it was when HECS started, and wiping 20 per cent of HECS debt fixes that for a generation of Australians. For about 3 million Australians who've got a debt today, if you've got an average debt today which is about $27,000, it will cut that debt by about $5,500 bucks, so it's a significant amount of money.
FITZSIMONS: It will only happen though if you are re elected next year. Why not introduce a bill before then?
CLARE: It's absolutely right that it's part of a second term agenda, as Albo sets out, what we want to do if we're privileged enough to win the next election, and it does take time to pass legislation like this. I've got six bills that are in the Parliament that are going to get voted on in the next two weeks. One of those is also about HECS. We're fixing what happened last year where HECS debts went up by about 7 per cent when inflation jumped, so an average debt of that $27,000, that will cut it by another $1,200. But that bill's been in the Parliament for about six months. So it takes time to make these changes.
But what we've said is that if we win the election, this will be effective from 1 June next year. So before indexation happens again, we'll be able to cut everybody's debt by that 20 per cent.
FITZSIMONS: So we know that people who go to university have higher earnings over their lifetimes than those who don't. Are people with university degrees the most in need of this cost of living relief?
CLARE: I think all Australians need a bit of cost of living relief. That's why we delivered tax cuts for everyone, 13 million Australians.
FITZSIMONS: But in terms of priorities of those who really need the cost of living relief is it mostly those people with university degrees?
CLARE: There are a lot of young Australians who need a little bit of extra help with cost of living. One of the other changes that we said we'll make, apart from cutting your debt by 20 per cent, is also lifting the amount that you have to earn before you start paying it back from $54,000 to $67,000, and that's designed to be a bit of cost of living relief for people who are just out of home, got their first job, paying the rent, paying the bills, and do need a little bit of extra help.
FITZSIMONS: Whilst we're talking about universities, I want to look at international student caps. So the government plans to cap international student enrolments to 270,000 per year. Again, I just want to first understand what is the thinking behind that bill?
CLARE: Yeah, and important to note maybe at the start, it's not enrolments, but commencements.
So it will be 270,000 international students that can start a course next year. The thinking behind it is two fold. The bill is designed to fix some integrity problems in the system at the moment.
After COVID, I guess during COVID international students were told to go home, and they did, and then once the borders were opened up, students came back in bigger numbers than we ever expected, and so did some of the crooks that feed off a multi billion dollar industry. So we've had students come here to do a university degree, they get approached by somebody at a railway station offering a free iPad and a cheaper course, they switch from a uni degree to another course that doesn't cost very much, and they end up not doing the course at all, and they use the system as a back door to work here.
FITZSIMONS: So this is to limit migration?
CLARE: What we've said is we want to reduce overall migration.
FITZSIMONS: Can you say why that is needed?
CLARE: Part of it is making sure that we've got a sustainable level of migration as a country. We want to get total migration numbers back to what they were before the pandemic and part of that is getting international student numbers that come to Australia every year back to that pre pandemic level as well.
We are a country that's built by migration. My community in Western Sydney is a classic example of it. I think one of the reasons that we are such an incredible country is we're made up of people from all around the world.
International students are really important for this country. They don't just make money for universities, they make money for our entire economy, and they do more than just make money, this is about trying to make sure that the system is sustainable in the longer term.
FITZSIMONS: For some of those universities, it will result in a significant loss of income, and it's understood that a lot of people will lose their jobs because of it. Is there a plan for that transition period?
CLARE: There's a funding model for our universities that exists at the moment. That continues into next year in terms of the guaranteed funding for all of our universities. But there's extra funding that will be built into our universities as part of this Accord reform agenda from the end of 2025 onwards.
FITZSIMONS: We'll be back with this interview in a moment, but first a message from our sponsor. Let's move to schools. So the Government's plan to better fund public schools is called the Better and Fairer Schools Agreement.
For those who don't know about this agreement, do you want to just explain what it is?
CLARE: It's about making sure that we fund our schools properly and that we fund our children properly. Everyone will remember David Gonski.
FITZSIMONS: I don't know if all of the young people do, just explain it.
CLARE: You’re right. This is a long time ago. When Julia Gillard was the Prime Minister of Australia, she asked an eminent Australian, David Gonski, to develop a formula for how we properly fund our schools, and that was over a decade ago. And David came up with a formula that is now partially implemented for non government schools, for private schools; they're now funded at that level that David said that they should be.
FITZSIMONS: But let's focus on the public schools. Do you want to just explain what is the Better and Fairer Agreement?
CLARE: First let me make the point that no public school is funded at that level that David Gonski said they should be, except for the ACT. And so what David said was that there's an amount of money that should be allocated to each child, and at the moment it's around about $13,500 for each primary school student and about $17,500 for each high school student; that's the base amount of money. And then you provide extra funding based on need.
So that's the formula. Non government schools are by and large at it, public schools aren't, and what I've said is we need to fix that, we need to finish the work that David started.
So the Better Fairer Schools Agreement is all about that, making sure that we fund public schools at the level that David said they should be at, and then using that money in the right way to fix some of the real challenges that exist in our schools at the moment.
I've managed so far to sign an agreement with Western Australia that will get them to that full funding level in just over 12 months' time, and with Tasmania in just over 12 months' time, and with the Northern Territory too in four years' time.
FITZSIMONS: So my understanding of how this works is that the Federal Government current funds 20 per cent of that minimum level of funding required. And this agreement proposes that the Federal Government increases that by 2.5 per cent, and five of the eight State and Territory Governments have said that the Federal Government should be increasing it by 5 per cent. So the rest of the State and Territory Governments are saying that the Federal Government is not providing enough funding for public schools. What do you say to that?
CLARE: What I'd say is that I've got $16 billion of extra Commonwealth funding on the table to be able to close this funding gap, and
FITZSIMONS: But to be really clear, you're saying no to the State and Territory Governments, that you won't increase the funding for public schools further?
CLARE: What I'm saying to them is "let's do the same deal that we've done with two other States, WA and Tasmania where we both chip in. If we both chip in, we can get this done". And that $16 billion, to put it in perspective, would be the biggest extra Commonwealth investment in public schools ever. Ever. It would be a significant extra investment by the Commonwealth Government in our public schools, and what I'm saying to the other States is, if WA can chip in and if Tasmania can chip in, and if the Northern Territory can chip in extra funding too, then you can too, and if we chip all of our money in here, we can fix the funding of our public schools.
FITZSIMONS: With the five State and Territory Governments that have not agreed to this proposal, what happens if you don't reach an agreement? Do they miss out on that 2.5 per cent increase?
CLARE: If we don't reach agreement by the end of this year, what we do is we rollover their existing funding for the next year.
FITZSIMONS: So they'll miss out on the 2.5 per cent of extra funding for public schools?
CLARE: Not necessarily. They could sign a deal today and get that extra funding.
FITZSIMONS: But if they don't.
CLARE: If they don't, what we do need to do is sign an agreement to roll over the current 20 per cent.
FITZSIMONS: In your first speech to Parliament, I think it was in 2007 that you said, "let us be the Government that again invests in public education". Do you think that you've done that?
CLARE: I think with the deals that I'm doing, I am. I want to be the Minister that finishes the work that David Gonski started and, that is a long time ago. I was privileged to be part of the Rudd and the Gillard Governments that initiated that work and started the extra funding for our public schools, but the job isn't done yet, and I've got $16 billion to do the same deal right across the country.
FITZSIMONS: Let's move to single sex education. Time after time we have seen allegations of misconduct, sometimes really serious ones, emerge from all male schools and colleges. They are mostly private institutions. But is there any role that your Government can play in changing the culture?
CLARE: Yeah, there is, and particularly when it comes to colleges on university campuses. The fact is that I think those colleges, our universities, governments have failed students, have failed the people that have either lived there and been abused, been the subject of sexual violence in the past, and there is more that we can do and must do.
I've brought together the State Education Ministers, and they've agreed to establish a National Student Ombudsman. It's something that organisations like End Rape On Campus, and Stop, and Fair Agenda have been calling for, for the best part of a decade, and change is now coming.
FITZSIMONS: I want to move to last topic, teachers. We asked our audience what they wanted us to ask you today, and the number one question that came back was about teacher burn out. From your perspective as Education Minister, why do you think that teachers are so burnt out right now?
CLARE: It's a bunch of reasons. If you ask teachers, some will tell you it's about paperwork, it's about administration, it's about having time to teach and all of the other things that come with being a teacher. Some will tell you that it's about pay as well. And the good news here in New South Wales is the recent agreement that means that starting teachers now earning, I think, or will earn close to $100,000.
They're all part of the reason why people are leaving the profession that they love, resigning, not retiring, and I want to be part of turning that around.
FITZSIMONS: Do you think that educators across the board are adequately valued in Australia?
CLARE: No. No, I don't. If you survey teachers in Australia and ask them, "do you feel like you're valued by other Australians?" You'll find that only about one in three teachers say that they do, that they really feel like they're valued and respected, and that helps in part to explain why not enough people are signing up to want to be a teacher and why a lot of people are leaving.
FITZSIMONS: I think teachers listening would think, if you don't think that they're adequately valued, and you can't change that as the Education Minister, then who can change it?
CLARE: I think this is a job for all of us. You know, I've got to
FITZSIMONS: But you're the leader of the education sector.
CLARE: Yeah. I've got a microphone to help talk about how important our teachers are and to back that with the sort of money that I talked about a moment ago. We ran a big campaign last year called Be That Teacher, which was designed to shine a light on the importance of teachers right across the country.
I said that only one in three teachers feel like they're valued and appreciated by the community. The same survey in a place like Singapore finds that about 70 per cent of teachers feel like they're valued, and there's a line out the door in Singapore to become a schoolteacher.
So something as fundamental and basic and important as respect has a massive impact on whether people want to be a teacher and whether they stay.
FITZSIMONS: Jason Clare, thank you so much for joining the Daily Aus.
CLARE: Thanks for having me.