Interview - ABC News Breakfast

EMMA REBELLATO: Well, limits on screen time and the use of generative AI will be considered for schools across the country today as part of- Not today, rather. As part of a push to improve education outcomes. For more, we're joined by Federal Education Minister Jason Clare from Sydney. Minister, good morning.

JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Good morning, Emma.

REBELLATO: I want to get to some of those discussions at the Education Ministers meeting in a moment, but first I want to ask you about this huge result that we've seen with midterms in the United States. What do you think this is going to mean for Australia?

CLARE: Well, hopefully the price of fuel coming down. That's some early good signs that you just reported in the bulletin there. I think what everyone agrees on in the wrap up of that election is that the cost of fuel was a big factor in those results. And here in Australia, we didn't start the war, but we're copping it. You see it at the petrol station. I'm sure I speak for every Australian when I say that the sooner the war ends, the better, and that the Strait of Hormuz opens and things get back to normal as soon as possible.

REBELLATO: We know that the cost of living has been a big issue in the United States. It's also a very big issue in Australia. A lot of Australians are now working out their budgets as a result of the interest rate rise this week. We're hearing similar messages from government Ministers time and time again as a result of this and saying that they're not to blame, we're going to help, but we're not to blame for all of this. But do you think people are listening anymore?

CLARE: Well, I think people are doing it tough. We talked about this last week, Emma, and I said you just have to go to the shops or the petrol station and you can see the impact of inflation. And we've got a responsibility to do what we can. Part of it is what we as a government do. But it is also true that it's made worse by what's happening overseas. Don't take my word for it. Look what happened in the United States just yesterday and the price of fuel is up 28 per cent in the last 12 months. That's hurting Australians. And that's why I make the point again. The sooner the war’s over, the better. The sooner the Strait of Hormuz opens, the better. And the sooner things get back to normal, the better for all Australians.

REBELLATO: We have heard, though, Michele Bullock, the RBA Governor, has said, to be clear, she said this this week, "We're not tightening monetary policy because of the direct impact of oil prices on inflation." So, surely the government's got to cop some blame here.

CLARE: I'm not having an argument with the Reserve Bank, but she also made the point that what's happening overseas is making it worse. So, government has a responsibility to do what we can, but it is being made worse by what's happening overseas. And so I do take hope in those numbers that were just reported in the bulletin just a minute ago.

REBELLATO: Ok. As Education Minister, you had a meeting with other Ministers on Monday. You talked about a few things. One of those is the limits on screen time in schools. Now, we know some have agreed to it, but some are only considering it. Why isn't everyone on board?

CLARE: Yeah, well this is a big meeting. We made decisions about fixing the curriculum for maths for little kids from kindergarten to year two. And we agreed that we're going to do a review of the maths curriculum for three to six, including making sure that there's more financial literacy in the maths curriculum. We also made a decision that we want to look at making civics education mandatory at high school. And to the point you just made, we also talked about a digital detox, reducing screen time in our schools, but also restricting the use of AI in schools, both at primary school and high school. We heard the story from one Minister on Monday about teachers standing at the back of classrooms now so they can keep an eye on what's on the screen that kids have, to make sure that they're focused on the lesson, not looking at something else. And some states have already acted to limit screen times. Some are trialling it, others have said they want more evidence, and that's what the taskforce we're setting up is designed to provide. But all jurisdictions right across the country recognise that this has gone too far. I think mums and dads know it too. They see what screens do to their kids at home. We thought school was different, that screens would help. But more and more evidence tells us that kids who spend a lot of time on screens at school do worse than those who don't.

REBELLATO: So, this taskforce, how long is it going to take to report back and then to then act on the recommendations from that?

CLARE: It'll do that in two stages. We'll get reports back three times next year. So, that every time Education Ministers meet, we'll get a report back from that taskforce about the evidence, but also the survey work that they'll do, talking to students, to teachers as well as to parents, about what are the next steps we need to take in this digital detox.

REBELLATO: Can you talk us through this generative AI, the use in schools. What are you looking at there?

CLARE: Yeah. Well, think back to when we were little kids. You didn't get a calculator when you were in kindergarten. You had to learn to count. You learnt the times tables before you were given a tool in high school to do it faster. That's important because you've got to build those mental muscles up first before you do it at speed. And I think the same thing is true with AI. If you just outsource all of this to technology, you don't build the critical thinking and problem-solving skills that you're going to need as an adult. China just did a big study on this. They gave AI to a bunch of high school students, 26,000 of them, and it showed that their homework results went up by about 18 per cent and their closed-book exam results went down by 20 per cent. So, what it shows is that AI can be a pretty effective productivity tool, but it's not good for long-term learning. You don't learn as much. And that's why we've said we want to do the same sort of thing we're seeing in New York and in LA and a couple of other places around the world where you want to make sure that you're not using AI in primary school and you're restricting the use of it for assessments at high school.

REBELLATO: Minister, another thing that you looked at, you've mentioned maths and financial literacy, civic education as well. Jewish history has been talked about as well. Has this not been taught enough in our schools?

CLARE: I think that's a fair point. It has been taught, but more can be done here. You know, the truth is that hate comes from fear and fear comes from ignorance. And education can't do everything here to turn that around, but it can do a lot. And that's why we made the decision on Monday to improve what the curriculum has in it. In the teaching of the Holocaust, what happened, but also the causes and the consequences, and also the history of Jewish Australians, their contribution to Australia, and their culture. And that's just the start. We also asked the body that's responsible for the curriculum, ACARA, to do more work on what we need to embed in the curriculum to tackle racism and hate in all its noxious forms. And David Gonski, the person who has led this work over the last 12 months, has agreed to lead that work over the next few years.

REBELLATO: Jason Clare, good to speak with you. Thank you. 

CLARE: Thank you.