Interview - ABC Afternoon Briefing
GREG JENNETT [HOST]: I'm joined now by our political panel and Labor front bencher and Queensland Senator Anthony Chisolm is out in Casino in Northern New South Wales today, welcome Anthony, and from Melbourne, Liberal MP for Flinders Zoe McKenzie. Good to have you back too, Zoe. Why don't we start out on student caps, and I will go to you first, Anthony, because this is in your wheelhouse as an Assistant Minister. 270,000 is the figure set by Jason Clare. I know it attracts bipartisan support, but universities are almost across the board not happy. You have got a fight on your hands here. Is it worth it when migration levels and applications are falling away anyway?
ANTHONY CHISHOLM [ASSISTANT MINISTER]: Well, it's important to maintain the integrity of international education in this country. It is a very important industry; we want it to continue sustainably into the future and that's why there has been a lot of consultation going on behind the scenes in the sector. We want to ensure that we get that balance right between restoring integrity but giving the sector confidence that it can continue into the future. We feel as though we have got that right through the rigorous process we have gone in consulting with the sector behind the scenes. We have obviously had the announcement from the Minister today and then correspondence with the universities to inform them of the decision as well. So, I think we have handled it well, we have given them the confidence that they need to move forward, but we are also telling the Australian people that this will be managed sustainably into the future.
JENNETT: How do you approach this and monitor some of the feedback, Zoe McKenzie? I notice that Universities Australia from a written statement today says the Government has already before we got to these caps has already taken a sledgehammer to the international education sector. Are you really in lockstep with the Albanese Government in pushing ahead with these caps?
ZOE MCKENZIE [FEDERAL LIBERAL MP]: Well, I think it is yet another example of the Albanese Government catching up with alerts that we have put on their table some time ago. Our leader brought this up at the time of the Budget in Reply, suggesting that caps needed to be imposed sensibly in consultation with the sector. I agree with Anthony, this is a very, very important market for us. Roughly every student that comes here, them and their families spend about $50,000 here which is a very important injection into the Australian economy. Yet when 560,000 come in one year and 500,000 of them are searching for homes in the private market, it has put an enormous pressure on our big cities in particular. So, yes, caps are required. The issue with this is that it is so cack handed. I have had more representation from the university sector on this than on anything in the last two years. They have no certainty; they have just got the figures today that appear to have been plucked out of the air. It is not clear yet whether they pertain to certain countries that they can or cannot bring people from; which degrees they can and cannot bring people from; is it postgraduate or undergraduate. What is this government doing to make sure we have a really broad, thriving international market? We have disproportionate focus on the markets of China and India, what about Latin America, South America, Western Europe? Students would love to come here from there, yet we always go back to the same markets. And there is nothing in any of these reforms, it is pure chaos for the sector, which is enrolling at this point for next year, and just getting a letter today saying, "Oh, I don't think so". Not the numbers you had hoped for. It is a shambles, but so typical of this government going into something in a very cack handed way.
JENNETT: Can you pick up on that, Anthony? I mean, you say that consultation has occurred, it doesn't mean that these figures have been accepted, so you can respond to that. But also why can't we have the institution by institution numbers today?
CHISHOLM: Obviously, the Minister made his announcement and we are going through the consultation with the universities. I know that there has been a lot of Vice Chancellors who have been making the trek to Canberra to consult with the department. That's appropriate, we wanted to ensure that we did that in confidence with them. And now we are providing the certainty that they provide by providing a letter to them about their numbers and saying that we will engage in discussion with them on an ongoing basis. We understand this is important, we want to get this right. We know how important it is to the university sector, but we also want to ensure that when these people come to Australia that they have a good experience and that hadn't been the case previously. We want to ensure that is the case and that will actually be to the benefit of the long term industry.
JENNETT: It is getting late in the piece though, Anthony, Chisolm, isn't it? As Zoe points out, enrolments are very soon to open, applications for visas probably need to be in about now. What's the deadline you are setting yourself to give certainties to the sector here?
CHISHOLM: Well, obviously we want this to be in place from 1 January next year. We need to get the legislation passed as well. But it is something that is important to the sector so that's why we did need to be thorough in our consultation, which we have been. Now we are taking it forward and obviously we need to have the debate in the Parliament around the legislation at the same time.
JENNETT: All right. And you are not quibbling with the number, are you, Zoe McKenzie? I mean, 270,000 we don't know how it was arrived at, but what do you think of the magnitude of that cap?
MCKENZIE: Look, that's precisely the point you are making, we don't know how that figure was arrived at, and we do not know what the effect will be on the universities themselves. We do not know will they be able to make up that funding somewhere else, we do not know what the impact will be on the Australian economy. We do not know what it will mean in terms of are we still bringing PhD and advanced master's students to Australia? Are we losing those students that come here for a year or two and might get a degree that's from here and their home institution? They are a wonderful asset to this country, but we know precisely nothing from the announcement today other than that they are going from 400 to 270. We called on them to do a more sensible number in terms of bringing one that could be sustained and one that was matched by housing provided by the universities themselves. One thing I should say, the devil in the detail also is the absolute slamming of the numbers going into the vocational educational sector. We need vocationally educated and trained people here. We need our tradies, we need our apprentices, we need our trainees. We need so many of those practical skills. We had most of them out on the street today. We need to backfill if people aren't going to be happy to work anymore under the CFMEU administration. But
JENNETT: Right. But we are talking about foreign students, though, aren't we, Zoe? People who would take those skills and return home.
MCKENZIE: But many them stay. Many of them stay, Greg. They come here, they learn skills the way we want them to learn, they get an Australian ticket to be on a worksite or to be in a trade somewhere. They are great attributes to the Australian economy but, again, an absolute slamming down on the numbers of people in vocational education in the announcement today.
JENNETT: Yes, we have done less discussion on that. Look, I might move on, there is much more we can talk about on the education front. I will go to you, Zoe, on the stirrings of what I'm calling a savings debate or a budget management debate from your side. You may have heard some of my exchange with Angus Taylor, but you don't get to claim any of these savings from Labor's big off budget funds, do you, unless you commit to repealing them in government. Will you do that?
MCKENZIE: One thing I did hear, Greg, was that the Treasurer the Shadow Treasurer was very keen not to give you a scoop today.
JENNETT: True.
MCKENZIE: And if you don't mind, I will take a leaf from his book. One thing I can say though is I have been at the starts of governments both at the federal and state level, and this is what you do. You go through the federal and state budget line by line. You look for where funding has become tired or ineffective or is no longer serving the national interest. We have already got some pretty clear indicators of measures that this government has put in place that aren't going to serve the national interest. The National Housing Fund, not a single dollar of the 10 billion has been spent yet. The Future Made in Australia, that hasn't been spent yet either. And it is all about picking winners and inefficiency in the Australian economy. If you were to ask me I would do more trade agreements. I would use them to back our best exporters, our best producers, our best know how to sell to the world because if we know we have got buyers for it it is going to be successful.
JENNETT: What's the Government going to do to sort of counter this costings debate that's emerging, Anthony Chisolm, particularly around your prized off budget funds there. I mean, do you demand that the Coalition clear up its intentions on repeal or otherwise?
CHISHOLM: Well, I had the misfortune of catching some of Angus Taylor's interview there and I heard lots of talk with very little answers, Greg. But it is concerning that they are prepared to drop these headlines without actually backing it up with any substance. And I would say to the Shadow Treasurer and to the Coalition they should get out and about and talk to councils around the country like I have been doing. All of them have a significant housing challenge, all of them are excited about the Housing Australia Future Fund and what it will provide. It would be a catastrophe if they go and pull the rug out from under that next year. It is just about to start making investments that are going to make a difference. As I said, I have met with tens and tense of councils in the last couple of months. So many of them have applications in that are excited about how this will apply in their local community. It's about to start making a difference. The Coalition really need to think hard about this because it is going to do significant damage. I heard Mr Taylor say they are focused on priorities. There is such a big priority around housing, are they going to decimate it? Just gob smacking, really.
JENNETT: Pick that up, Zoe. You will know you will know full well as a diligent local MP that housing is the hot button issue up and around cost of living isn't it. So having the Australian Future Fund about to hit its straps after a slow initial year, true, why pull that rug out now?
MCKENZIE: Do you know what would be important and make a real difference in my electorate, Greg? I have 300 or so public houses sitting empty. So, State Government owned, houses falling into the ground. No matter how many letters I write, no matter how many times I pick up the phone, no matter how many speeches I give in the Parliament, or our State MPs give in the Parliament, they won't do a thing to reactivate, redevelop, and build better homes so people can move into what are already public houses sitting there waiting for occupation. So, pick up the phone Albanese Government, ring your state governments, tell them to use the assets they have got rather than building white elephants that by the way you seem incapable to get a dollar out the door for.
JENNETT: All right. Look, somehow, both, I think we will be having these policy discussions and the associated costing debate with it for many months to come through the tail end of this year and into next. We might wrap it up there. Zoe McKenzie, we thank you, and Anthony Chisholm, up around Casino today, always welcome having both of you back with us and we do again today.
CHISHOLM: Thanks, Greg. Thanks, Zoe.
MCKENZIE: Thanks.